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I would like to know how many here actually sight read and play a melody at a moments notice? I think that most of what you are going to do is comp. I may be way off(known to happen), but I would think if you know the chord symbols you could play the basic changes through the first time around then either add/substitute the 2nd/3rd time around.
Any thoughts?Last edited by edh; 01-12-2015 at 10:29 PM.
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01-12-2015 10:17 PM
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Depends on the tune for me...this week's Jam of the Week (well, one choice) Ugetsu? no problem.
A Parker head at 280? No f--in' way!
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I suck at reading. Part of the problem for me is, learning to read music is not fun in any way. I think the key is, like others have said, read only a little each day. Don't set your goals too high. To be able to sight read would be great, but, fact is, you're only going to be able to achieve that with TONS of sloooooow reading until you become very very proficient. It's a perishable skill too. My girlfriend used to play in the orchestra and although she could site read, it was never necessary, and if she didn't read and play everyday, her site reading would start to slip right away. She played violin.
I only speak for myself here, but I am happy to be able to plow through a tune very slowly and I doubt I'll ever be able to sight read anywhere near tempo. If I can read a chord chard and improvise, that's good for me. The solos I can learn by ear if I want.
Here's a free resource if you're interested...
How to read sheet music... a free course.
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One reason I want to read better is so I can use other learning materials, like Mark Levine's books, in which all the examples are written in notation (mainly for piano so I can't actually play them all on guitar anyway, though...)
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During rehearsals at camp last summer, the expectation was to play through the warmups. Until then, I had never been in a situation where I had to read on the spot at such a fast tempo. Everyone else in my combo were on top of it, meanwhile, I'm still squinting at the first measure like, "okay....C....E...lemme find my spot on the guitar, alrighty....G...B". Next thing I know, everyone else has moved on to the next section of the warmup and I haven't left the second measure. Do you know how embarrassing that is? Been busting my ass on this reading ever since.
Last edited by Broyale; 01-13-2015 at 02:40 AM.
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Isnt it ironic how musicians like to talk about the imprtance of sight reading, but then you show up at a jazz gig or jam session with a fake book, or iphone app, and try to sight read a tune you haven't play before, and people look at you funny...'no dude, you supposed to know all the standards in the world, stop cheating by reading the charts'.
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sight - reading is a skill or sometimes a talent, but it has nothing to do with musical talents...
in professional areas there are cerain conventional expectations what pro should be able to read considering tempo, dynamics, articulation... this expectation includes more or less musical interpretation. ANd they are a bit different for band players and for soloists
But it is stupid to expect one to sight-read unknown piece of music properly in artistic way. And no need to do it...
Any educated actor can read clearly an unknown text from the book, but even great actor cannot play his dramatic part properly just reding the unknown text. No-one expects him to do it...
And about techique - I met good players who cannot play abstract models like scales/arpeggios etc. mechanically at pre-set tempos, and they do not practice it, but they can play it/and read it within a piece of music easily... I guess it is just the way of thinking, they need to have coherent phrases, meaning to be in rythm and tempo...
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Sight reading for guitar is also knowing all your various chord symbols, and the variety of nomenclature used by arrangers/engravers. A big band jazz ensemble style chart may have very few lines to read and have hundreds of specific chord changes to address, which sometimes can be just as challenging to read at tempo as line notation.
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If you can sit through a real book page(most of the real book, the really complex ones can be excluded) without faltering (both chords and head) you're good to go as far as reading is concerned.
Generally you're not going to use sight reading unless you are
1) Doing a specific official course or camp or class.
2) Playing other peoples music for money.
If you are more interested in playing at home and jamming/gigging with friends, there won't be much reason to read music.
If you are learning music off a transcription - I highly recommend against it, both solos and tunes. Especially solos. It should be done by ear.
If you can make your way through the real book, then don't waste any more time on reading. Life is short, make better use of your time and learn music by ear. Keep reading to a minimum.Last edited by pushkar000; 01-14-2015 at 06:20 PM.
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Like I said... Sight reading is also just a reflection of your technical skills and abilities also. Most can't sightread because they can't technically play what is notated, with out practice anyway.
So yea, who needs it, it's just a waste of time.Last edited by Reg; 01-13-2015 at 09:40 AM.
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It doesn't have to be an either/or. Knowing how to read and knowing a lot of standards are both important skills.
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Knowing how to read more effectively will help me learn more tunes faster.
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Slightly off topic, but I had a lot of top area jazzers over at the house last week for a jam and a friend brought along a 14-year old kid who plays trombone. He hung with every tune that got called, without any charts or music, and did quite well. I figured he either had amazing ears or had studied a heck of a lot of tunes. He later told me that, in his high school band, they have had to study 120 standards! 120! I haven't even yet played 120 standards, let alone study them. So he knew them all, "but not always in those keys", which means he also had great ears cuz he was transposing the changes on the fly. Kid's gonna go far... Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
(We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programme...)
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Some of these kids... Originally Posted by jasaco
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You know, I agree, and after awhile your ear start recognize the changes, and basically you can have it figured out by the 2nd or 3rd chorus... I once sit in with a swing combo, where they were doing all this classic American songbook standards. I thought I would do a couple of songs, but ended up playing the whole set and a lot of songs I never played before, and nobody kicked me out. (Granted, they had a piano player, but it's a good feeling not to rely on charts but on your ear) Originally Posted by jasaco
But still... I've been to a straight ahead/modern jazz jam, and some of the tunes gets called.. I've never heard stuff like that, like Inner Urge, or Invitation... This kind of jazz is new to me, and frankly I have a hard time feeling it like I do swing tunes. And if I on a band stand, I find reading the charts helpful. But don't give me those looks, it's not some people's everyday music lol.
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I totally think basic sight reading skills are essential, which is why I practice it daily, but the people who keep saying that superior sight reading will help them learn more tunes or learn more solos from transcriptions etc are IMHO coming at this jazz thing the wrong way.
Best thing you can possibly do for your playing: learn stuff by ear. Sure, if you are going to play something then relying on sheet music can be helpful. But learning stuff that way is a false economy.
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I understand what you're saying Originally Posted by coolvinny
For me, its not so much wanting to have superior sight reading skills, I am not trying to be a pit orchestra musician, but I want to improve my reading skills so that I can read and play assigned charts quicker and not get caught off guard in a situation where I am expected to sight read something.
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I can see that point. In reality a "chart" can range from a Realbook style melody plus lyrics and chord lead sheet to a detailed specific part in a group setting. I am a good reader of notation, but if I have a preference between a tune that I know the melody and harmony well by ear versus an unknown song with complex rhythmic figures, I'll take the known standard every time. But reading skills never hurt and you can gain a lot.
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Transcribing a lot of solos (meaning notating/reading them) will take care of your sight reading ability. If you read your transcribed solos every day along with other material, you will be playing in the studio a lot sooner than you think. Start today. If you feel you need help, find a GOOD teacher, soon. This is a difficult project, but it can be done if you do the grunt work.
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Originally Posted by Professor Jones
Could the people who say that reading is very important for a jazz guitar player elaborate the reasons why ? When you're soloing, you're not reading. And you can learn to play any melody (head or solo) using your ears. So unless you have to play a tune you never heard from a partition, why would you need to learn how to sight read ?
I can read, but at a veeeeery slow pace. Which is not surprising, because I rarely read anything. And in my opinion, what I need to work on is absorbing more language, and learning more tunes. I never feel that I need how to read better, and I don't see how that would make me play better solos. I may be wrong thought, which is why I'm asking you to elaborate !
Sure, one of the reasons reading is so important for a jazz guitar player is to be able to play with other jazz musicians. Jazz players use real books and you are usually told what page to play and then go straight at it. It is a shame but, in my own experience, the pianists and brass jazz players are usually far more competent readers than the humble jazz guitar player (myself included and I've been reading for years and playing over 30yrs!).
reading shouldn't be seen as a hurdle but more as an asset and an advantage to playing. The rewards and satisfaction of being able to read competently at the gig are enormous and, for a working pro band, essential.
Hope that helps.
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This quote from Bill Frisell applies:
"For me, it's really important to keep the melody going all the time, whether you are actually playing it or not, especially when it's some kind of standard tune or familiar song form. A lot of people play the melody and rush right into their solo, almost with an attitude of 'Whew - that's out of the way, now let's really play!' Then they just burn on chord changes, and it doesn't relate to the song anymore. I like to keep that melody going. When you hear Thelonious Monk's piano playing - or horn players like Ben Webster, Miles Davis and Wayne Shorter - you always hear the melody in there. Sonny Rollins is the classic example of that - I've read that he thinks of the words while he's playing the sax, so the song really means something to him. It's not just an excuse to play a bunch of licks over chord changes."
If you are sight reading the melody, it is not internalized. Playing licks over chord changes is not the kind of jazz music I'm interested in. That is why I don't really value sight reading. I don't think it helps very much in playing jazz.
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I agree with all of what Bill says. I'm a big fan and don't rehearse ''licks' myself. However, Bill, Sonny and Miles all read music and I think they would say it is (or was) an invaluable and essential skill.
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I know of some killer Jazz players who are blind...... so much for the importance of sight reading!
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OK - here is the "Zen" approach - the goal is where it all becomes One.
Let me try to explain. As I was reading the thread, I was sitting here playing the song Georgia On My Mind on my Yamaha classical guitar in the key of G. Solo chord melody style. Now, it is hard to get analytical about your playing "in the moment", but I call it "chasing the melody". I anchor the bass notes off of which I play the melody and fill in the harmony. This is by ear. Yet, as I type this post, I can visualize in my mind the notation. But I don't need the notation to play this tune, and in reality when I'm playing it solo as before, I'm playing what I hear.
Analytically, the rhythm and the qualities that imparts to the melody and harmony in terms of forward motion are so important. It is like the rhythm of lines of poetry. I write detailed notation transcriptions, which sometimes is just an improvised piano version of the song. The notation is the dry record of the performance (midi file), yet the two are one. And I can 'see it' the song - melody and harmony - as notation in my mind. The two are One.
Having said that, I do not like to play new music cold in performance settings. But it very much depends on the "degree of difficulty" of the music as written. The style. The complexity. Tonality. Functional harmony. Atonality.
Most of the time you are playing musical standards that you know or can work out before hand at least in terms of structure. If you are playing a song like Georgia On My Mind, I never need a transcription of the song in whatever key you want to transpose, but I like the fact that I can 'see' the notation in my mind as well as read it on a screen or paper. In some ways music notation can be the "net" below the jazz 'trapeze artist' (improviser). If you zone out for a moment while you are playing (and it happens), it can help you find your way or cushion your fall.
This is not intended as some elitist screed or anything. It's just that if you do this notation and reading thing long enough, it does become second nature to a large degree. Easier, but not always easy. Anyway, ultimately the ears rule. Even better if you can see what you hear and hear what you see - Zen.
Jay
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One added thing - I should point out that in truth, the harder thing for me is not to read music notation. It is actually to see it in the dark. Or in the light for that matter...getting older.
Jokes aside, one interesting observation I find in relation to my Yamaha keyboard synth. It has an LED that includes keyboard staves. When you hit the keys, the appropriate notation of the note appears on the relevant bass or G clef staff. When I focus on my right hand in terms of focusing my gaze on the upper melody staff, I find I can play almost 'automatically' - something I consider a strategy to disarm the attention of the Superego. A kind of distraction of focus which allows your subconscious to make the decisions. There is also a kind of synergy between the hands ears and eyes in terms of the notation and playing. Hard to explain.
JayLast edited by targuit; 01-14-2015 at 11:02 AM.
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