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  1. #1

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    Hi folks. I'm working through MB book one and so far so good. Lesson 6 however has me a little confused in that he seems to be introducing new chords that are not in the original 26 laid out in lesson 1. Is this correct? If so, why does he not number them as in later lessons? Are they not important?

    Hope someone can clear this up.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Hi
    Great lessons to work on.
    Visit this brilliant site. Here you will have every lesson explained and tips including Tef Edit (free download from site) showing eachlesson in every key plus audio of how it should sound
    www.advancedguitarstudygroup.com
    This lesson deals with creating short introductions using melody chords, most of whom are in Group C we discussed in Lesson 1. This will be a little more meaningful if you do a little outside work. That is, find some jazz groups’ recordings, especially from the late 40’s until recently, and listen to them for the introductions. Sometimes the intro’s are from the ending measures of the tune, and quite often they are just a pretty chord progression that leads into the tune. Often, albums by jazz vocals have the most beautiful instrumental intro. One in particular is Julie London’s “Cry Me a River”, with jazz guitar genius Barney Kessel creating a haunting lead-in. One doesn't have to limit themselves to Jazz recordings. Listen to Chet Atkins with Homer and Jethro in their early recordings of Mainstreet Breakdown, Gallopin' Guitar, just to name two. We immediately identify "How High the Moon" from Les Paul's unforgettable intro.

    Mickey’s intro’s can be described as nothing more than pretty chord progressions. Try to determine the relationship of the chords to the keys. For example, Intro 1 is /ii-ii-V-V/ii-ii-V-V/I-I-V-V/I……. This will help in your understanding of how these were created, in case you are ever called upon to create an intro. Once you have a structure, it’s a relatively simple matter to stuff it with chords so that the upper notes make a pleasing and interesting melody. Something that dawned on me is that these intro's are largely built out of "turn-arounds". Exercise 2 is a 2-measure turn-around that is repeated. Exercise 3 comprises 3 turn-arounds. The remaining intro's are based on chord progressions.
    These “Group C Melody Chords” are chords that are mainly using notes from the 1st four strings of the guitar. If you are playing with a larger group, and with lots of rhythm instruments like a bass and a piano, you can use these melody chords to add and to cut through the “low end mud”. One "trick" to building your bag of chords is to take a melody chord and try to play the note that was originally on the 1st string on the 6th string. It doesn't always work out, but if you discover 1 new form that way, it's 1 more than you had. And it also works in reverse- a rhythm chord can be converted to a melody chord by moving the 6th string note to the 1st string.

    Hope I,ve helped a little
    Best
    Rod

  4. #3
    Thanks for that. I've checked out the advanced study group and also Rob MacKillop's youtube lessons. Neither seems to clear up my confusion though. For example, the first chord of in Lesson 6, the Am7, I cannot find anywhere in the initial 26 chords or in the later "group C" chords. It's a new chord shape. That's OK, but I expected after drilling those initial 26 chords I would only expect to use them until he introduces further chords.

    Does anyone get what I'm talking about here?

  5. #4
    Hi
    Let me try to help a bit further.This is how I interpret what Mickey is teaching us.
    Mickey gives 26 chord forms initially to introduce us to playing the chords and the exercises. He also wants us to move them around and learn them in different keys (same chord different places on neck).
    So far so good,,,,,
    Mickey is introducing you to a different way Am7 etc to the chords on the first sheet, Don't panic ,this all starts to make sense as you progress.there are complications for us guitarists in that as you will see from a section of advice I received from Michael that I have reprinted here. There are 49!!!!different ways of playing chords in the key of C alone all using THE EXACT SAME NOTES!!


    The very simplest of chords in traditional harmony are triads- a form that comprises three notes, a root, third, and fifth. That means we can have a root position, a "first inversion", and a "second inversion" depending on which note we place in the bass. Most guitarists are really comfortable with that concept as most beginning guitar courses have the student play a C chord with the C note in the bass and then he plays the same chord again with a G note in the bass (a 2nd inversion). Another quality of the lowly triad is that each form has the most distinctive chord sound in music. Again, practically all guitarists do their first "transcriptions" figuring out chords to simple forms like folk songs and the Blues.

    Where we run into problems is when we start making chords more complex by adding a 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. If we take a C scale (or any scale for that matter, but I choose C due to most folks' familiarity with it) and we harmonize every note to become a 13th chord, we have a root and six inversions of each chord, or 49 chord-name possibilities, and ALL WITH THE EXACT SAME NOTES!!!!

    In exercise 6 you are
    playing MELODY chords ...this means that to play melodic progressions you need to play the chords in a position that plays that melody introduction leading to the chorus chord ....in this instance Gma.

    Later you will learn chords that have different names but exactly the same notes and other chords not on the first sheet of 26.
    He also stops printing the grids as you will (should ) have learnt them.
    I will stop now as its enough information. Take it slow.....learn the chords.....and it will come ......remember you are doing this for FUN. Enjoy the journey.
    I have been learning this stuff for a lifetime and still struggle on occasions .

    Hope I have helped a little

    Cheers
    Rod

  6. #5

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    Not to worry. Later on in the lessons you'll come across one that explains how chords can have different names but be in the same fingering config. The Am7 is the same as chord pattern 12 which is listed as GM6.
    Look ahead thru the book, sometimes you can get an idea of what MB wants you to do in preparation for what is to come.
    Good luck, be patient and have fun.

    Al B (currently at lesson 40)

  7. #6
    My take on it is that they are intros to be memorized etc. . Kind of standalone pieces more than chords that you want memorize the names of individually. At least that seems to be his emphasis. You need to learn them in all keys and should have an idea of what the chord names are , but it's a different emphasis from the chords at the beginning. In the long term, we want to learn many different ways to play any given chord. I wouldn't think to at the beginning.

    Also, with Mickey Baker, it's often best to not ask why. It's not super integrated with understanding theory etc. There are other books for that. This will get you playing, And it's really good for that.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Br. View Post
    Not to worry. Later on in the lessons you'll come across one that explains how chords can have different names but be in the same fingering config. The Am7 is the same as chord pattern 12 which is listed as GM6.
    Look ahead thru the book, sometimes you can get an idea of what MB wants you to do in preparation for what is to come.
    Good luck, be patient and have fun.

    Al B (currently at lesson 40)
    Thanks for clearing that up Al. That just leaves the A11 chord as the ring-in! As others have said, maybe I'm over-thinking this, but it's good to know what the ground rules are (or aren't). I've spent over six weeks on MB1 so far and have pretty much got the first lessons down. Thanks everyone for the help. Why isn't there a MB book1 study group here?

    cheers

    Rob

  9. #8

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    There is no group per say, but there are helpful posts within this section. Rob MacKillop has a post where he plays out the lessons with explanations. Helped me a lot when I got stuck in one of the later lessons. Other than that feel free to ask and I'll be happy to help as best I can. Been playing since I was 8, did several years with various working rock bands, and now am trying to learn Jazz and Blues. No pro by any means and just a cub in the Jazz world. But will help if I can.

    Al B.

  10. #9
    I'm finding lesson six hard going. MB says in the text some of the chords are very hard to play, and I totally agree. That first exercise is really giving me problems. I slowed down to 40 bpm on the metronome and still could not get those changes. This is not a problem however, I'm enjoying feeling myself being stretched musically. I had imagined I could work through the book one lesson per week, but that's really not happening and I can see myself spending more like 4 weeks on lesson 6. And yes, I'm putting in a solid hour per day on just MB.

    Maybe I'm just slow!

  11. #10
    Thanks for the encouragement! It's the Am7 / Gma6 and the D13 / D13 b9 I struggle with - basically those double stops. But, it's getting easier - by which I mean occasionally I'll get all 4 strings to sound. Does anyone else find the higher chords a little jarring? The A11 for example has the high D on the 10th fret, the whole chord sounds a little dissonant. Maybe my guitar is not intonated correctly?

  12. #11

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    Not to worry W3, lesson 6 can be a bear. I'm an old rocker and it took me a long time to get thru some of the chords and the change from one to the other. Just take them slow and one at a time. I found it helps to try and see the chord in my head. Especially since it seems like at times my fingers want to argue and go their own way. I'm at lesson 40 but I still go back thru the book and work thru each lesson.

    As for playing the upper neck chords, if you are finding them difficult try altering the position of your guitar in your lap. Depending on the guitar, upper neck playing may require an adjustment. It can change the position of your hand and make it a bit easier. Later after you've mastered the lesson you may not have to change.

    One last tip. This will sound strange but it helped me. After you've gotten comfortable with one measure of chords, play them in reverse order. It will sound odd but it helps your fingers. Playing one progression over and over kind of locks your mind set. Playing it in a different order gives you a bit of mind set flexibility. Odd I know and it may not work for you, but it's worth a try.

    The chords you see in lesson 6 will appear, in different configurations later on in the book. So take your time and get them down as best as you can now.
    Good luck, have fun.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by w3stie View Post
    Does anyone else find the higher chords a little jarring? The A11 for example has the high D on the 10th fret, the whole chord sounds a little dissonant. Maybe my guitar is not intonated correctly?
    Shouldn't be too jarring. If you're new to jazz , it may take some getting used to. It's a little more dissonant than the chords before, I guess.

    If I remember this lesson right, it's more about the melody. Listen to the top notes . If you get used to hearing it as simple chords with the melody on top , your ear doesn't really hear that as dissonant. But you actually have to get things moving and have it under your fingers somewhat to really hear it that way.

    Everything sounds weirder slow.

  14. #13
    I'm just updating this thread for the benefit of any others that may be struggling. As I type my left wrist is aching from the strain of trying to finger the chords in exercise one of lesson 6. In particular the first chord Am7, but also the D13, D13b9 and Gma6. What I'm finding difficult with the Am7 is to avoid muting the G on string 2 with my 3rd finger. I'm conscious of having to drop my wrist to get that 3rd finger coming down vertically on the 3rd string, but that makes the double stop / mini barre of strings 1 & 2 with my 2nd finger very tricky.

    I find the only way I can avoid muting that 2nd string is to bend the half stop away from the third finger. So there's a lot I'm trying to do and I've stopped trying to get through the chords at any tempo and am just trying to get that chord to ring out. Same deal with the Gma6 and to a lesser degree the d13.

    I've spent 2 weeks on this lesson so far, and am prepared to keep at it for another two weeks until I get it. I think after that I'll move on though - don't want to get bogged down. The upside is, the first exercises now seem a lot easier than they did 6 weeks ago!

  15. #14

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    I worked from Mickey Baker when I was a teenager many years ago and was amazed at the sounds those chords produced. But I hit the same issue as you, and I think the reason was the books were roughly put together.
    Those half-barres are hard. You may want to read around the whole subject and not just use the Baker book and definitely don't get hung up on one chord.
    Things became clearer for me when I looked at other tutors and I went back to Baker with fresh eyes.

    Theory especially I found Baker lacked but I will always be grateful to him for those first insights.
    Poor chap died only a couple of years ago I found out - wish I'd heard more about him back in the day.

    Do you play scales by the way - I've found that the sort of muscular development needed for those hard chords can be helped by running up and down those strings a few minutes every practice session.

  16. #15
    Thanks John Tom, thanks for the feedback. I've moved on from lesson 6, and I'm glad to say I'm finding those tricky half-barres much easier!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by w3stie View Post
    I'm finding lesson six hard going. MB says in the text some of the chords are very hard to play, and I totally agree. That first exercise is really giving me problems. I slowed down to 40 bpm on the metronome and still could not get those changes. This is not a problem however, I'm enjoying feeling myself being stretched musically. I had imagined I could work through the book one lesson per week, but that's really not happening and I can see myself spending more like 4 weeks on lesson 6. And yes, I'm putting in a solid hour per day on just MB.

    Maybe I'm just slow!
    Same here...I am very slow with this book and now at the same point like you in 2015 starting with lesson 6 but I have fun with every little progress. I have more problems getting used to Mickey Bakers chord names. First chord A_7 is A_7 but second chord A11 is called A7sus on the side oolimo I am working with and there are no Major 11 chords existing. Also D13 is called a F#7sus(b5)....very confusing because I don´t know which chord names I have to memorize.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musgo Real View Post
    Same here...I am very slow with this book and now at the same point like you in 2015 starting with lesson 6 but I have fun with every little progress. I have more problems getting used to Mickey Bakers chord names. First chord A_7 is A_7 but second chord A11 is called A7sus on the side oolimo I am working with and there are no Major 11 chords existing. Also D13 is called a F#7sus(b5)....very confusing because I don´t know which chord names I have to memorize.
    I agree about the A11. I also see it as a A7sus. I've even seen it called Am11 in other books. Don't get too hung up on the names.

    Your chord calculator thing is misleading you because that D13 (and the D13b9 a few bars later) are rootless chords. The root is on the 5th string, 5th fret but it's not being played. Play a standard 5th string root D9th chord - x54555. Now put your little finger on the 7th fret, 1st string. Can you see where Baker's D13 comes from now?

    Naming chords can be confusing. Mickey Baker names them by how they're functioning. That D13 is functioning as a V7 chord in the key of G, so you definitely wouldn't call it an F#7sus(b5). In fact I'm not sure anybody would call it that.

    I don't know what a "side oolimo" is, but I'd tuck it away in a drawer. It's not helping.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue View Post
    I agree about the A11. I also see it as a A7sus. I've even seen it called Am11 in other books. Don't get too hung up on the names.

    Your chord calculator thing is misleading you because that D13 (and the D13b9 a few bars later) are rootless chords. The root is on the 5th string, 5th fret but it's not being played. Play a standard 5th string root D9th chord - x54555. Now put your little finger on the 7th fret, 1st string. Can you see where Baker's D13 comes from now?

    Naming chords can be confusing. Mickey Baker names them by how they're functioning. That D13 is functioning as a V7 chord in the key of G, so you definitely wouldn't call it an F#7sus(b5). In fact I'm not sure anybody would call it that.

    I don't know what a "side oolimo" is, but I'd tuck it away in a drawer. It's not helping.
    Thank you a lot for your answer.
    The oolimo side for me is a good helper to memorizing all notes on the fretboard, but I am on your side when it comes to chord names. For rootless chords it is useless. If I got any other problems and questions with the Mickey Baker book, can I contact you for support here on the forum?

  20. #19

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    I did a 3 video thing about lesson 6 if you're interested:



    White belt
    My Youtube

  21. #20

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    Hi Joe, great work you`ve done and offering for free to the public and thank you for your input here in this thread. But for real beginners like me, not knowing all chords and alternative chords you are talking about...hard to follow your instructions. Also I am missing some explanations which strings you are playing or muting for each chord. I have searched youtube but all video lessons about the Mickey Baker book, except the lessons made by Rob McKillop, are not made for newbies. Also Rob does not explain each chord in detail. In the Mickey Baker book there are the chord diagrams but also not with any signs like fret numbers, muted strings etc. Maybe people think that someone starting with jazz must have played guitar for years before getting to this point and got a lot of knowledge.

  22. #21

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    Here I go trough each chord one by one:
    White belt
    My Youtube

  23. #22

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    Hey Joe, thank you but these are the chords for lesson 2, 3, and 4. Not for lesson 6.

  24. #23

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    White belt
    My Youtube

  25. #24

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    Hi Joe, maybe I am just too stupid...but aren´nt you explaning all chords in detail from page two, Part One - Lesson 1 in these videos? You are not explaning the chords from page 6, lesson 6. There are several new chords not showed on page two. Like this strange "Octave" chord.

  26. #25

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    You're not stupid, I just thought lesson one covered all the chords used; I must have been mistaken. Good luck with your practicing!
    White belt
    My Youtube

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    You're not stupid, I just thought lesson one covered all the chords used; I must have been mistaken. Good luck with your practicing!
    Anyway, you did a great job with your lessons. When can we see your new video showing all chords in detail from page 6 for lesson 6?

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musgo Real View Post
    Anyway, you did a great job with your lessons. When can we see your new video showing all chords in detail from page 6 for lesson 6?
    Actually, I just took a look, and it seems all those chords are addressed in lesson one. Did you have a second look?
    White belt
    My Youtube

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Actually, I just took a look, and it seems all those chords are addressed in lesson one. Did you have a second look?
    Thanks for this advice. You are so right, but having a second look over all chords I find these few differences.

    Page 6

    First line:
    Am7 is also Gmaj6 on page 1 and also on page 6 same line
    A11 is not on page 1 and isn´t the A11 an A7sus?
    Octave is not on page 1

    Fifth line:
    Last chord Adim is not on page 1

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Question:
    13b9 chord, isn´t it _6 (#5)

  30. #29

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    First line: the A11 is just an Am7 with an added melody note. The melody note is an 11th. I would suggest thinking of this as simply adding a melody note rather than a whole separate chord. The Octave is an interval, not so much a chord. Has a dead note in the middle.

    fourth line: The notes in a G6 are GBDE, the notes in E-7 are EGBD. same right? Those chords are the same, they're "enharmonic." The chord is an A-7 in the fourth line because of which fret it is played on. It's a movable chord shape.

    The A dim fingering from the 4th string to first is 1,2,3,4
    White belt
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  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musgo Real View Post
    Question:
    13b9 chord, isn´t it _6 (#5)
    it's either D 13b9 or Ab9
    White belt
    My Youtube

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    First line: the A11 is just an Am7 with an added melody note. The melody note is an 11th. I would suggest thinking of this as simply adding a melody note rather than a whole separate chord. The Octave is an interval, not so much a chord. Has a dead note in the middle.

    fourth line: The notes in a G6 are GBDE, the notes in E-7 are EGBD. same right? Those chords are the same, they're "enharmonic." The chord is an A-7 in the fourth line because of which fret it is played on. It's a movable chord shape.

    The A dim fingering from the 4th string to first is 1,2,3,4
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    it's either D 13b9 or Ab9
    Joe you are great. Thank you so much for spending your time for a jazz noob like me. I apreciate that so much.
    For the so called Octave chord, which strings are played and which are muted?

  33. #32

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    you're welcome. I was wrong on the fingering for the dim, it's 1,3,2,4.

    The octave is the 5th and 3rd string only...all others are muted or not played
    White belt
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  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    you're welcome. I was wrong on the fingering for the dim, it's 1,3,2,4.
    Makes it so much easier to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    The octave is the 5th and 3rd string only...all others are muted or not played
    Got it.

    I am from Germany....If you will visit Hamburg one day, let me know.
    Same to Jack E Blue.