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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Bromley View Post
    I recognize the merits of M3 tuning and am seriously considering switching to it, but there is one problem that I am hoping one of you experts can help me to solve. In standard or P4 tuning, I love to play using a Chet-Atkins-style alternating bass-line. I use my right-hand thumb to pluck strings 5,4,6,4,5,4,6,4 to play notes C,E,G,E,C,E,G,E. My left hand plants my middle finger on the 4th-string E while my ring finger toggles between the C and G on the 5th and 6th strings. This leaves my first and little fingers free to play other notes. I've done this vamp a million times and it feels very comfortable.

    When I try to do the same bass line in M3 tuning, I find that I have two options: One is to move my ring finger sideways by one fret as I toggle between the 5th and 6th strings - which is very difficult to do while holding the middle finger stationary on the 4th string. (Human fingers have very little independent sideways motion.) The other is to allocate three fingers to these three notes - leaving only my little finger to play other notes as required for a chord or a melody line. Both of these choices are undesirable. Have any of you discovered some other trick that easily enables this style of play?
    The Russian guitar has 7-strings and Ralph Patt liked to play with 8-strings, either of which would give you lower notes.

    The Russian guitar's being tuned repetitively in major-triads (rather than regularly in only major thirds) may be an advantage for bass-line playing. You might look at the history of Russian guitar, which I cited previously, for a discussion of its alternating bass-line, in the 1800s:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    There is a long tradition of using bass lines on the Russian guitar, which is tuned (approximately in major thirds) in open-G tuning D-G-B-D-G-B-D, according to the monograph by Timofeyev:
    Timofeyev, Oleg V. (1999). The golden age of the Russian guitar: Repertoire, performance practice, and social function of the Russian seven-string guitar music, 1800-1850. Duke University, Department of Music. pp. 1–584. University Microfilms (UMI), Ann Arbor, Michigan, number 9928880.
    Of course, the Russian classical guitar has seven strings, which facilitates the bass-line playing and droning. (Forgive any sloppiness in terminology, please.)

    The sound of the Russian guitar's open tuning motivated me to experiment with the overtones open-tuning C-C-G-C-E-G on my Ovation, with the cross-note (minor) variant replacing E with Eb. I loved the rich major and minor chords: The sympathetic resonance of the barre-chord strings makes the guitar come alive!
    My daughter enjoyed strumming the guitar much more than she does with the augmented chord of major thirds tuning.

    It was trivial to alternate between bass notes and power chords on the low strings and melody on the high strings. (My left pointing finger is now much stronger after a month of barring, also.)


    You are right. These musical goods are unavailable with M3 tunings with six strings. Apparently droning and bass lines are conventional in Russian guitar, which has seven strings.
    Finding a friend to play bass or baritone guitar might be another option!
    (I mentioned before my liking C-C-G-C-E-G for rhythm guitar, although sevenths were difficult....)
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 09-08-2013 at 05:06 AM. Reason: quote Russian guitar monograph

  2. #52

    Wikipedia article: String gauges

    The Wikipedia article on M3 tuning misquotes the gauges suggested by Dr. Ole Kirkeby.

    I suggested acoustic gauges on the article's talk page .0135 .022w/.019p .028 .035 .044 .055, which match the tension of a light set). For an (Ovation) steel-string acoustic, reasonable strings are frugally supplied by D'Addario's EJ17 string-set (supplemented by the PL019 steel string).


    For a Parker electric-guitar, reasonable strings are supplied by Thomastik (SL109 Blues Sliders), albeit expensively. I did not find a frugal string-set, and so I assembled individual strings, matching the tension of D'Addario's .009-.-042 standard-tuning set (.0115 .014 .018 .026/.028 .034 .044).

    Small discrepancies in the "matched" tensions occur because I impose the constraint that the tension be gently increasing (or constant) as the string gauge increases.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    M3 tuning facilitates position playing on 4-fret segments. To raise a note one octave (from strings 6-4) simply shift the finger by three strings. This is simpler than the diagonal shifting for P4.
    Kiefer, I salute you in your explorations. I don't know how many hours you have spent with each of these tunings. There seem to be at least four on the table (standard, P4, M3, NST). But I do think that one has to spend quite a bit of time with a tuning, especially the symmetric ones (since non-symmetric tunings are a priori deeply flawed), to have a decent idea of its merits. Here you say that jumping three strings is "simpler" than diagonal shifting. But I think that most guitarists would think that is false. Most guitarists shift quite a bit. Indeed, some standard tuning scale patterns require shifts. Jumping three strings, however, is something that guitarists generally avoid, unless we are talking about finger picking.

    More importantly, my comment was in response to a question about my earlier comment to the effect that the single biggest advantage of P4 was the diagonal arpeggios. So any comparison of a tuning with P4 has to first grasp this huge matter. Jumping three strings may be simpler provided this that and the next thing. But M3 doesn't have workable diagonal arpeggios. So that is a shortcoming. How big of a shortcoming it is can only be appreciated by understanding how great they are in P4.

    Tunes move in 4ths typically. It's not about running the arpeggios for more than an ocatave. That would sound lame anyway. It's about grabbing the next arpeggio. Where is it? One string up. The next diagonal arpeggio is one string up. It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! It's one f'n string up! So, it is super easy to find grabs to play through changes. Tunes move in 4ths and P4 is a tuning in 4ths. Until this is grasped, any comparison with P4 will be deeply deeply deeply flawed. One needs to grasp that P4 is all about grabbing.

    Last edited by jster; 10-16-2013 at 07:08 AM.

  4. #54
    I don't wish to repeat myself. I've already acknowledged that all tunings have advantages. In particular, I've acknowledged that P4 allows diagonal arpeggios, when I asked you to explain the importance of that advantage.

    In all perfect-fourths tuning, is it possible to provide consistent fingerings of triads and sevenths---i.e., fingerings that exchange a repeated root or fifth for the seventh?

    Like its fingerings of triads and sevenths on 2--3 consecutive frets, M3's consistency (of triads and sevenths) appeals to beginners.

    You mentioned New Standard Tuning. The fingering of chords is easier in M3 tuning than in New Standard Tuning. NST or an open tuning (like the overtone series C-C-G-E-G or its cross-note variant C-C-G-Eb-G) would be superior for strumming triads and power chords, e.g. for rhythm guitar; open tunings seem limited for sevenths and so of limited interest in jazz.
    Attached Images Attached Images Major Thirds Tuning-knight_megaloceros-jpg 

  5. #55
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    I only play in fourth tuning (P4), personally I don't think the type of tuning used is the important issue, Jazz is about creating good melodies over songs what ever instrument or tuning is used.

    Here's an example of my P4 playing, I'd be interested to hear an example of Kiefer Wolfowitz using M3 or NST to play Jazz.

    Last edited by GuyBoden; 10-17-2013 at 07:02 AM.

  6. #56
    Here I'm playing the changes over a little number by John Cage.
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 10-17-2013 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    Here I'm playing the changes over a little number by John Cage.
    That's more than 4min 33sec

    Seriously, I'm interested in hearing you play with your style of tuning.

  8. #58
    This thread is on M3 tuning, not on my playing.

    I believe that there is a subforum devoted to discussions of players worthy of discussion, and I suppose you could open a forum on me if you like, but first I suggest you read my disclaimer in this thread. A better reason to familiarize yourself with the thread would be to read others' previous comments.

    Regarding M3 tuning and jazz:
    At the website of the late inventor of M3 tuning, Ralph Patt provides scores of backing tracks and a dozen or so non-backing pieces on his website, which give you an idea of what a (retired) professional jazz-guitarist can do with M3 tuning. Ole Kirkeby and Patrick Zemb also provide recordings of their playing.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    Regarding M3 tuning and jazz:
    At the website of the late inventor of M3 tuning, Ralph Patt provides scores of backing tracks and a dozen or so non-backing pieces on his website, which give you an idea of what a (retired) professional jazz-guitarist can do with M3 tuning. Ole Kirkeby and Patrick Zemb also provide recordings of their playing.

    Yes, I'm very aware of the late Ralph Patt and his tuning in thirds, I liked his "Vanilla changes" book, back in the day he posted on RMMGJ usenet about symmetrical tunings and jazz things in general.


    Here's a link to a Ralph Patt post on RMMGJ in 2006 you might enjoy, it's got the usual arguments when discussing third and fourth tunings:
    http://tinyurl.com/q685myx


    As a symmetrical tuner myself, obviously I'd like to hear your recorded examples, because words are very limited when trying to explain musical ideas.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    I don't wish to repeat myself. I've already acknowledged that all tunings have advantages. In particular, I've acknowledged that P4 allows diagonal arpeggios, when I asked you to explain the importance of that advantage.
    Nor do I wish to repeat myself. But you quoted my point about diagonal arpeggios and then responded by saying that M3 arpeggios were simpler than the P4 diagonal ones. So you were clearly going beyond just saying they have different strengths and weaknesses. That is a truism that applies to every two things. A 82 Escort has advantages that are different from those of a 2014 Ferrari.

    You said M3 was simpler and here was your reasoning and your conclusion: "M3 tuning facilitates position playing on 4-fret segments. To raise a note one octave (from strings 6-4) simply shift the finger by three strings. This is simpler than the diagonal shifting for P4."

    That is what I was disagreeing with.

    We weren't diagreeing about triads, so I have no idea why you mention them now.
    Last edited by jster; 10-17-2013 at 02:25 PM.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    Nor do I wish to repeat myself. But you quoted my point about diagonal arpeggios and then responded by saying that M3 arpeggios were simpler than the P4 diagonal ones. "M3 tuning facilitates position playing on 4-fret segments. To raise a note one octave (from strings 6-4) simply shift the finger by three strings. This is simpler than the diagonal shifting for P4."
    That is what I was disagreeing with.
    Thanks for your comment, which clarifies our disagreement, the mechanical/ergonomic cost of shifting one finger 3 strings upwards versus shifting the entire hand.

    Let me speak as a traditionalist: I type on a QWERTY keyboard, which allows vertical shifting of 2 rows (up or down) and horizontal shifting of one column (a pinky stretch, mind you, not a hand shift). Perhaps even the anachronistic QWERTY keyboard, with all its flaws, suggests that vertical finger(s)-shifting is more ergonomical than horizontal shifting of the whole hand. Does the Dvorak keyboard encourage vertical finger lifts or horizontal hand-shifts?
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 10-17-2013 at 07:13 PM.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    A Ralph Patt post on RMMGJ in 2006 you might enjoy, it's got the usual arguments when discussing third and fourth tunings:
    http://tinyurl.com/q685myx
    When that discussion was good, it was very good:
    On Friday, March 17, 2006 11:43:23 PM UTC+1, Ralph wrote:> KenK wrote:
    > "As accepted tonality changes with time, it is only natural to reasses
    > things like tuning, intonation and even tone. We hear and like close
    > voicings on piano all the time, but never on the guitar. This is a
    > limtation that perhaps the 3rd system can overcome.
    > Ralph can you weigh in on this?"
    >
    > If you are asking whether I've had trouble with intonation using major-third
    > tuning..., then the answer is "no".
    > But then again, maybe it [(any intonation problem) is] something my friends don't tell me about.

    > I really like the advantage of using close voicing, but also the open
    > chords allow all the notes of ninths, flat ninths, etc. One thing I've
    > heard from piano players for years is that guitar players don't know
    > the difference between F9, Cm6, and Am7b5. They have a point.
    > Major-third tuning helps play fuller chords, besides the obvious
    > advantage of close position chords.
    >
    > Ralph
    (copy edited by KW)


    "Fuller" was a bad choice of wording! What I'm refering to is the capability of playing chords that don't leave out notes. For example: a
    C7 b9 #5 chord...five notes...fairly easy to play with thirds tuning
    without leaving any notes out. Many guitarists would leave out the root
    but not necessarily because they wanted too...just more convenient.
    Nothing wrong with that if leaving the root out is your choice, but I
    like to hear all five notes (see my chord section for examples). And
    these chords are not close position.
    I hope that explains what I meant by "fuller".Ralph
    When that discussion was bad...
    hans vanleeuwen
    3/17/06
    Don't get fooled, I've tried it years ago. It's a complete waste of time,
    disregarding all historical and cultural achievements. EADGBE is the best
    all-purpose tuning for Bach to Coltrane. Thirds or fourths add nothing to
    the many advantages guitarplayers already have: easy transposing by simply
    shifting up or down position. If you hate the fact that a chord can be
    played in 3 or 4 different positions and if that is enough to hold you back
    from normal tuning then don't start playing guitar at all or learn the kazoo.
    at least the coup d'grace had style.
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 10-18-2013 at 03:28 AM.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    As a symmetrical tuner myself, obviously I'd like to hear your recorded examples, because words are very limited when trying to explain musical ideas.
    Guy,
    Your repeated requests for a recording of my playing (despite my disclaimer, of which I reminded you just above)


    remind me of your recent post, which less charitable readers may mistake for passive aggression.
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 10-18-2013 at 03:42 AM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    Guy,
    Your repeated requests for a recording of my playing (despite my disclaimer,
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    I am teaching myself guitar with M3 tuning G#-C-E-G#-C-E. I knew that my daughter's birth (and my professional duties) would mean that I would have little time to practice, and so I chose the tuning that would make learning the fretboard and learning basic chords the simplest.
    Sorry, I didn't realise you've only recently started learning M3 tuning.

    I'll just say this, the main reason I didn't use M3 tuning, although I did spent a lot of time investigating Ralph Patt's ideas, is because P4 is an easier change if you are fluent in standard tuning.

  15. #65
    No problem!

    I've seriously considered P4 and standard tuning.

    In the thread on new standard tuning, I conjectured that NST and open tunings "sound better" than standard tuning, which sounds better than M3 tuning---convincing nobody and in fact provoking at least one mild mannered guitarist gently to suggest disbelief; he explained that, for most guitarists, muting nullifies even consonant sympathetic-string--resonance.

    As a beginner, I'm not worrying about muting (apart from picking precisely and releasing straight-up from the fretboard, particularly on the 12th fret), so sympathetic resonance is an issue. (I'll add that Gruv Gear's small Fretwraps solved the problem of sympathetic resonance. )
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 10-26-2013 at 07:38 AM.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    No problem!

    I've seriously considered P4 and standard tuning.

    In the thread on new standard tuning, I conjectured that NST and open tunings "sound better" than standard tuning, which sounds better than M3 tuning---convincing nobody and in fact provoking at least one mild mannered guitarist gently to suggest disbelief; he explained that, for most guitarists, muting nullifies even consonant sympathetic-string--resonance.

    As a beginner, I'm not worrying about muting (apart from picking precisely and releasing straight-up from the fretboard, particularly on the 12th fret), so sympathetic resonance is an issue.
    As a beginner, I think M3 is a good choice, because you have no previous fretboard knowledge to unlearn and M3 has both consistent fingering symmetry and easier to reach chords.

    I wish you well with M3.
    Guy

  17. #67
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    The only tuning I use is the P4 tuning...This was the result of a lession with a jazz guy when I was 20 somthing...didn't mess around with the guitar until 4 or 5 years ago, then I fell in love with cord melodys...Ok, there are some limitations. But some stretches are a little easier, others a bit harder, some impossible without leaving out a few notes, and then your ok..
    All in all, its works just fine.....I have had some problems with some Ted Greene arrangements....but usually its doable.
    No transposing of cords...seeing the neck and intervals a little clearer... And you will use some bar cords also...I wouldn't go back if I had to do it all over again.....

  18. #68
    I have written a tutorial on major-thirds tuning outlining its strengths and providing chord charts for several chord types. It is called "Chord Shapes for Major-Thirds Tuning on a 7-String Guitar". View it online at www.keith.bromley.name . I wish to thank Kiefer Wolfowitz for critiquing it for me. Please feel free to give me any feedback on how to improve it.

  19. #69
    Hey, Keith -- thank you for these resources. I've been using P4 for a year and a half, and your P4 guide had a few voicings I wasn't aware of. Very detailed.

    As for M3: here's my issue. I continue to use standard for classical, flamenco and pop. Standard rules where you have big strummed chords with open strings.

    I can manage switching between P4 and standard, but M3 is too big a difference.

    As it is, I continue to have a "crisis of confidence" because of the lack of great players using P4. There is Stanley Jordan, of course, the patron saint of P4, and he's awesome -- but not really a jazzer and definitely not a regular guitarist.

    Where is the P4 Wes / Metheny / Martino? This is the issue I continue to deal with, but I do believe that for me P4 is the best shot I have at becoming a decent jazz player.

  20. #70
    JazzinNY,
    I'm glad to hear that you liked my P4 and M3 online tutorials. Thanks for the positive feedback. I agree that, if you need to occasionally play in standard tuning, then also playing in M3 tuning is too big a difference. I am currently playing in standard and P4 and M3 while I evaluate the strengths of each, but I need to soon settle on just one so that I can become fluid in it.
    I recommend that you dismiss your "crisis of confidence" over the current lack of a P4 Guitar Hero. (Perhaps you will become that person.) If Keith Richards had not pursued his 5-string open-G-tuning just because nobody else had used it, then the world would have missed out on some beautiful music. Be bold and adventurous!

    Keith

  21. #71
    Another resource with automatically generated chords is the guitar tunings database
    http://www.gtdb.org/tuner/ceg-sharp-.../#.Und43xAlKCw

  22. #72
    There is another thread on M3 tuning, in which I noted an example of jazz being played in M3 tuning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiefer.Wolfowitz View Post
    On Youtube, there are videos of Roman Giza busking with a Chapman stick,

    which is tuned in major thirds, if this source be correct:
    http://www.stickist.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=347
    I'm sorry that I had not remembered Giza before.

  23. #73
    I've got a first draft of a method book for M3 tuning, and am looking for reviewers! Any chance there are three jazz players in here willing to review a 35-page first draft and send me feedback? If I manage to get the thing to press, I'll gladly acknowledge you, of course, and send a finished copy. Let me know: anthonjaycorman@sbcglobal.net.

    Almost two months later: <crickets>
    Last edited by anthonyjaycorman; 03-05-2014 at 07:21 PM.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyjaycorman View Post
    I've got a first draft of a method book for M3 tuning, and am looking for reviewers! Any chance there are three jazz players in here willing to review a 35-page first draft nd send me feedback? If I manage to get the thing to press, I'll gladly acknowledge you, of course, and send a finished copy. Let me know: anthonjaycorman@sbcglobal.net.
    Please double check your email address, which was rejected by sbcglobal.net.

    Presumably you intended anythonyjay....

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 01-17-2014 at 03:57 AM.

  25. #75
    Keifer, you're right: anthonyjaycorman @ sbcglobal.net. Thanks for agreeing to review - I'd still love to get more eyes on the first draft, so if any other M3 jazz guitarists would be willing to review, please let me know and I'll send you a draft. Thanks!
    ---
    Personal web site (www.tonycorman.com)
    FivePlay Jazz Quintet web site

    FivePlay on FaceBook

  26. #76
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    I am late to the party but I only found out about this thread recently because it has suddenly turned up in the m3guitar referral stats. A handful of referrals from one site in one month is enough to stand out. Even after more than ten years online, and some major facelifts, m3guitar gets very few visitors.

    I am keen to point out that you should blame the shaky playing in the video recordings I have put up on me and not the major thirds tuning. My practice routine is very irregular and I spend far more time putting tutorial material together than on working towards a decent performance level. Nevertheless, since I have worked on the major third tuning in complete isolation for more than ten years I find the issues highlighted in this thread very interesting. When I made the switch I never thought about the 'mechanical' side of playing. It was all about logic, and it still is. I never liked barred chords, and I never got comfortable with the conventional tuning anyway so I have no reference point. I am convinced the major thirds tuning is great for single-note soloing but I am less convinced it is great for chords and accompaniment. My greatest wish is that an army of talented guitarists will use the major thirds tuning to create fantastic music that will completely dwarf my effort. For me personally there is a beauty and aestetic appeal about the major thirds tuning that makes me addicted to it but since it is only a hobby for me I can afford to be choosy :-).

    ole

  27. #77
    Ole, I agree 100% - it's a great system for jazz and I'm puzzled by the lack of general interest. Oh well.

  28. #78
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    @Keith Bromley "I am not aware of any “big name” professional guitarist who regularly uses M3 tuning. This lack of a role model or idol is currently a major drawback"

    I soooo agree. It is impossible to overestimate the importance of this. Until we have an M3 guitar hero the kids won't be interested, and you won't be able to buy an M3 string set in your local guitar store. Imagine if somebody like Steve Vai would endorse the major third tuning. We desperately need that.
    Last edited by m3guitar; 03-30-2014 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Reply did not appear next to post

  29. #79
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    Ahem, let me just remind myself I am on a jazz forum. The point is, Metal M3 Guitar hero -> exposure to millions of guitarists at all levels and ages. Jazz M3 guitar hero -> exposure to geeky minority. If we want the major thirds tuning to reach the average player regardless of style it will require promotion from somebody in the mainstream.

  30. #80
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    Well I'm late to this forum, but definitely not to the concept of the M3 tuning.

    Twenty years ago, I was very curious about the potential of this... in addition to several other tunings on guitar... and decided to visually chart them out for easier understanding as to how they would apply to my instruments.

    Being a lefty-guitarist, there was a limited amount of such material: even for standard-tuned charts, let alone for any ones featuring alternate tunings.

    I'd researched and heard about M3 mainly through Ralph Patt's contributions: his forum postings and especially his website. Once I'd completed my versions of the 'MAMI Musical Scales Atlases for M3 Guitar', I'd reached out to Ralph to share my book and concept as it applied to his tuning.

    He was very gracious: surprised and pleased with my efforts. A brilliant and gentle man, in so many ways!
    Interestingly, he compared my 'concept' to a guide... in standard tuning... that he and guitarist Chuck Wayne had thought to develop in the late 50's. Given that their work had been released before my time and not available in the mid-90's, I was not familiar with their guide, nor had I heard of Chuck.

    After doing some You-Tube searching, I was glad to hear them both playing.
    Chuck Wayne is simply amazing: although he plays standard tuning on the recordings I've been able to find. Whatever 'logic' he was using, I want some of that!

    Ralph's site is probably the best starting place to "think" about the concept of M3 Tuning and hear it being played in the context that he developed it.

    Unfortunately, too often discussions tend to degrade into "the limitations of tunings" and comparisons with standard (being more popular) equaling "superior". IMHO... and realistically... every tuning has relative strengths and weaknesses that affect / influence instrumental execution, artistry and style. Until I created my MAMI books it was much more difficult for me to fully visualize, or realize the benefits of all tunings from a creative standpoint.

    Just like with Pierre Bensusan and DADGAD... or Joe Beck, with his amazing split Alto tuning... Ralph applied M3 to better facilitate executing the musical ideas he wished to create using his instrument. In the end, this is all it is about. There is no way that much of the original, unique music these men have created would be made easily possible by interchanging their tunings: even by using "standard".

    I've done some experimenting with M3 and can't claim to be anywhere near a master of it. Furthermore I've not ever done any recorded sessions using it. To me, M3 works well... and more logically / functionally as a tuning to best facilitate expanded melodic approaches, with harmonic approaches being more limited. But the only way to decide for yourself is to either tune the thing up and experiment for yourself, and / or definitely check out my charts below for a more complete view of the instrument to determine if its logic suits you.

    Hopefully their will be players who will desire such to continue to advance the state of musical artistry: regardless of their chosen tuning. Like Ralph, Pierre, Joe and so many others await our discovery. I believe that there is a lot of potential using M3 and perhaps some players will adopt this tuning to create some amazing art!

    Anyway, my creative contribution to the M3 tuning hasn't been 'musical' just yet, but maybe it can influence and assist all interested to try to create.

    Some free full fingerboard charts for Right-Hand 7-string Guitar in M3 tuning, plus links for additional MAMI Musical Scales Atlas Charts and Books are linked below:

    403 Not Permitted


    Some free full fingerboard charts for Left-Hand (Lefty) 7-string Guitar in M3 tuning, plus links for additional MAMI Musical Scales Atlas Charts and Books are linked below:

    403 Not Permitted

    I really miss Ralph and Joe, as well! They were both really great, encouraging people to me and fine, creative musicians to us all. Unfortunately I was only able to share with them for a few brief years after meeting them so late in their lives. But I'm also glad I was BLESSED to be able do so at all.

  31. #81
    Hi! I see this is a necrobump, but I registered here specifically to comment on this thread as it appears to be the only damn thing on the web where people who have used it are actually talking about M3 tuning.

    Full disclosure: I am a former pro guitarist, but not much of a jazz player. I've done jazz gigs, I can fake my way through it all right, but my jazz skills are basically just what I need to get by when such a gig comes up. However...

    I've been screwing around with M3 tuning for about six months, using it to play rock and metal. Some of the tunes on my upcoming original project were written in it, and I have been working on playing tunes from the pop and rock repertoire using it as well. A few observations:

    1) As a metal guitarist who gets bored with power chords and likes the sound of tight chords with good voice leading, this tuning is a godsend. Any melodic or harmonic interval is within reasonable reach.

    2) Scales are a tradeoff... many scales that were previously difficult are now super-simple. However three-note-per-string shapes require more motion along the length of the neck. I do not see this as a big drawback.

    3) Arpeggio options are unbelievable expanded, and you can be very specific about the order of the notes in our arps without difficult stretches.

    4) Open chord stuff is iffy. You can get a lot of really cool open string voicings, but rarely are they vanilla major and minor chords.

    5) A seven string guitar is borderline essential. I wouldn't want to do any more; with my big hands i can still wrap my thumb around a seven string neck and grab bass notes with it.

    6) The biggest single issue I have encountered is pedal tones, particularly when approaching the existing repertoire. Sometimes you NEED both an open E and open A string, and sometimes a D string as well. I have solved the problem with a product called fretlocks which is essentially a one-string capo. That way i can alter the open pitch of a single string without changing the intervallic relationship between the fretted notes of that string and those of the other strings. I have my problems with the Fretlocks, so if anybody knows of something better advice would be welcome.

    The verdict: I'm not 100% sold... I haven't attempted any serious fingerstyle guitar with it yet and I can think of a couple of immediate problems, although they might be solvable with some judicious bass string retuning. Also, this would be useless for the garden variety folk singer-songwriter; the lack of easy triads using 5 or more strings is probably a complete showstopper for them (once again I am going to attempt to solve the problem with by altering the tuning of the low strings). But with single string capoing on the low strings most of the rock repertoire is very approachable (although you can't always fall back on the usual soloing cliches), and the narrow intervals combined with the symmetry solves A LOT of previously insurmountable problems. right now I'm researching building a seven string guitar using warmoth parts that better suits my needs (I hate humbucking pickups) than do the commercially available alternatives. I recommend that everybody at least take a stab at this.

    I'd love to see some more discussion on this, and to see if there might be any interest in a method based on the tuning (I'm a guitar instructor amongst my other failings).

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon View Post
    Hey everyone I have been going at it with this tuning for about a month or so and I gotta say there is no going back for me in standard tuning. There is really only three individual strings that you got to learn the notes of. Three closed chord voicings are where its at in this tuning (especially learning them in the top 3 strings e-ab-c since you can bring the same placement of the chords down to the lower bass strings E-Ab-C). The high c string is almost basically like a b string in standard tuning so I don't have to worry as much about getting in the way of the melody when comping.

    I play classical pieces as well and I learn them at a faster rate compared to when I have standard. Two pieces (etudes) learned so far! One of the pieces though there was a few couple of points where I have to change a high note down to an octave sometimes leading to repeating notes. The only other solution is to buy a guitar with 7 or 8 strings.. Kind of annoying but if you have good technique it can be managed.

    The only other negative thing I can say about this tuning is that it probably made me lazy as I practice less nowadays (but that is going to change soon hopefully)
    Dude... get the seven string. Just do it. I bought a cheapy Ibanez for the purpose. I don't really like the guitar, but it's allowing me to seriously explore the tuning. If you're working at all you're going to need the full written range. And that's been a big criteria for me... if I can't use it when I'm working, its useless.

    To take an example: Don't Stop Believing by Journey. OK, the level to which this song has become ubiquitous on the club scene is honestly a little depressing; it's reached a point at which if your singer can pull it off and you have a keyboard you're stupid not to do it. I've seen club managers who will not hire a band who doesn't have it on their list. It doesn't even matter what your main thing is; doing standins over the past few months I have played with classic rock bands, country bands, contemporary pop bands, and a couple shows with a funk/jazz/blues band with full horn section. I played that friggin song with almost every one of these groups. And the song is so iconic you'd better make it sound like the record. Because it's a song I KNOW I'm going to have to play if I wanna make money, it's one of the first arrangements I attempted in this tuning.

    Check the chorus... you've got both E and A pedal tones being played under high-note triads. Even using my thumb it's too much of a stretch; I HAVE to have an open A string. That's where the single string capos come in. Then there's that very easy but also very iconic solo. It runs straight up to the 22nd fret on the 1st string and bends to an E for the climax. Trying to take that down an octave just really kills the whole thing, so you needs your full range... low E for the pedal tones and the high D to bend up to E. the 7 string is basically non-optional.

    What I'm really in the market for is a seven string strat. I will probably have to build one.

  33. #83
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    Ha! You are right. I definitely looked into getting a 7-9 stringer but I'm broke so... for now one of my main things is to learn enough pleasant classical pieces to play in a restaurant (or weddings). It shouldn't take too long considering how logical this tuning is in terms of note locations.

    *i deleted my last post by accident thanks for saving it
    Last edited by jazznylon; 11-02-2016 at 10:29 PM.

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon View Post
    Ha! You are right. I definitely looked into getting a 7-9 stringer but I'm broke so... for now one of my main things is to learn enough pleasant classical pieces to play in a restaurant (or weddings). It shouldn't take too long considering how logical this tuning is in terms of note locations.

    *i deleted my last post by accident thanks for saving it
    I haven't tried any classical. Two questions.

    First of all, how are you compensating for the loss of open A and D? So much of the classical repertoire depends on that. As I mentioned upthread I've been altering those with one-string capos so I can do my rock pedal tones; how are you handling it?

    Second, since you're on a six-string how much of a prob is the loss of range? Are you just avoiding stuff that goes up to the 12th fret E, or are you playing a guitar with a cutaway?

    Would you be willing to share a list of pieces you've been able to successfully play?

  35. #85
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    Yes. So far I learned these in this tuning

    1. Fernando Sor - op. 6, no 8 (etude 1 segovia study)

    2. Sor - op. 6, no 11 (etude 17 segovia study)

    The first piece is very easy. There are no issues here and it works really well in this tuning. Nothing much to add.

    Now the second piece is where I find stumbling roadblocks of some sort. When it comes to fingerings you are on your own and this might present new problems if you are not yet used to this tuning. I might have to finger a chord with contorting fingers until maybe a week later I run through the passage again and find a new fingering (which works better!). I forgot to mention this but sometimes due to the lack of range I might raise the bass note up an octave which is the opposite of lowering the high melody notes down an octave. I might even take advantage of the high open strings sometimes. I might sustain low bass notes until I feel its okay to cut it off (this doesn't happen often but anyways).

    Basically it just comes down to being flexible with a certain piece making as little arrangements as possible while still making the piece playable and sound the same (for the most part!). I had the fortune of learning this piece back then in standard tuning as well so i can tell you which is easier to play. Both have their unique challenges but for me personally the major third tuning version is more playable compared to standard.

    I think you might get away with the loss of the open D string generally (though I might be wrong, I'm not well versed in classical guitar literature). It just comes down how adaptable you and your fingers are while solving a issue. There are a few pieces though I know that might not be playable in this tuning for example such as Villa lobos etude 1 and probably Asturias.

    Thought I might add to this but recently I have been think it might better to learn triads and shell voicings on strings 4-3-2 (C-e-ab). That way you can add extensions in the top 3 strings while still having a reference (root notes.)

    To answer your question I handle the bass notes just fine, but that may be because I have flexible independant fingers. I try not to avoid high notes up and beyond the 12 fret but it really depends. I personally don't like the sound of cutaway, so I don't have it. However I do use a strap for my classical (gasp!)

  36. #86
    I'm thinking specifically of a couple of Carcassi etudes where you're playing arpeggios above the 5th fret but using an open A bass note. that's just one example... how are you dealing with that sort of thing?

  37. #87
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    Hmmm.. I think I might have to show you a video of that. It really depends, actually now that I think about it there is not many places where you can play a low A note in this tuning. You could play the A note on the 9th fret 4th string an octave higher but that might intefere with the arppegios

  38. #88
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    Let me get back to you I'll show how i do it

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon View Post
    Hmmm.. I think I might have to show you a video of that. It really depends, actually now that I think about it there is not many places where you can play a low A note in this tuning. You could play the A note on the 9th fret 4th string an octave higher but that might intefere with the arppegios
    You should try the fretlocks... it's a little one string capo. I've found it essential because I'm trying to see if I can use this tuning in my day to day working life and if I can't play the existing repertoire in a convincing way it's useless. The fretlocks allow you to alter the open note on a single string while maintaining the intervallic relationships between the fretted notes on that string and those of the others. On a similar note, I started messing around with traditional alternating bass fingerpicking in the tuning over the past day or two. That's harder. I'm thinking the only real solution is going to be retuning one or more of the bass strings.

  40. #90
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    Sorry I just had dinner. So right now im looking at this piece from Carcassi that utilizes open A strings. Is this what you are talking about?



    Its far from perfect but anyways the first chord there is a point where i replace the first finger with my pinky. If I hadn't done that then the bass and middle notes would be cut off too early. Then the next shift occurs and i decide to put the Ab bass in a higher octave because its easier for me to play this shape.
    Last edited by jazznylon; 11-07-2016 at 08:08 PM.

  41. #91
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    Wait a minute i could've just used the open Ab string lol. I'm stupid

  42. #92
    Hehe I was just about to ask why you didn't use the open Ab string then I saw the next post.

    That's actually one of the pieces I was thinking of. Haven't played it in eons; maybe I'll give it a go in M3. Kudos for the way you handled the fingering. For a lot of pedal tone rock things I've found the lack of open A insurmountable in a lot of cases, hence the fretlocks.

  43. #93
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    Thanks dude! Its a great piece, I should get to learn it sometime in this tuning too. Something I notice as well while working on this piece in M3 tuning are how the chord progression work here. Like.. I already know what the chords are just by looking at them.. including inversions! There is no second guessing. Obviously I had to work on the instrument for a while for that to happen but it didn't take so long.

    I never had that luxury in standard tuning, even though I knew it somewhat well it just didn't kick in like that immediately compared to M3 Tuning. Call me crazy but I think the layout of the M3 fretboard makes even more sense than a piano!
    Last edited by jazznylon; 11-08-2016 at 12:10 AM.

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