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First post- Nice site, full of good information.
I've been playing finger style nylon acoustic for several years and lately find myself getting more and more into chord-melody style jazz. I find finger style very conducive to this type of playing on a nylon guitar. I can't help but notice though that all of the "real" jazz players use a pick on an electric archtop guitar...
I have a new Ibanez artcore that sounds great with a pick but sounds not so great when I play it finger style. Do I have to learn a whole new style of playing just to get the good electric sound?
Thanks,
John
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07-11-2007 01:23 PM
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Hi Minor7, I have an artcore too, and also have a classical guitar background - and as a result have a tendency to put the pick down and play with my fingers instead quite often.
I know what you're saying about it not sounding so good, and the solution is to get flat wound strings for your guitar. I just put some on yesterday, and it made an enormous difference. Unfortunately, since the top two strings (E, B) still are not wound, so there isn't any difference there.
Give it a shot, it can't hurt.
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I play both classical and steel string guitars, but mostly steel.
Using nails on the steel can sound almost as bright as a plectrum. I've taken to a "hybrid" style of holding the plectrum and using the other three fingers... gives great versatility! I'm still doing this on my Taylor... but am starting to get serious about auditioning "real" jazz guitars.
I was just playing an Artcore "custom" yesterday, checking it out against some others in that price range. The strings they come with from the factory probably aren't the best choice for finger-style playing. Depending on which one you are using, you might choose the bridge pickup (if it has one) or the combination setting and play around with the volume and tone settings on the guitar and EQ on the amp to try finding something you like better for your particular playing style.
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+1 on hybrid...it's been the answer for me.
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As mr. b says, the hybrid approach seems to be popular amongst most jazz musicians (according to everything I've read anyways). However knowing this doesn't solve your problem, but does help establish ways to solve it.
First, as you mentioned about the bridge pickup, the neck pickup seems to be magical in jazz guitars as far as I am concerned. When I try to play jazz, it sounds 1000% better when using the neck pickup. You may want to try adjusting your tone on the amp and your guitar while using the neck pick-up as opposed to the bridge pickup (which has a sharper sound by nature).
If you add in the flatwound strings, you will be able to achieve a very mellow sound -- possibly too mellow.
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Thanks for the tips. I also tend to find the tone I'm looking for with the neck pickup. As for the hybrid picking I guess I will just have to start practicing that way and see what happens. After all it's all an adventure in learning new things.
I will definitely change to the flat wound strings and no...... it can never be too mellow.
Originally Posted by gravyTrain
John
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I highly recommend (not that I'm an expert) trying a thumbpick--and by trying I mean actually spending enough time to get used to-- to get the best of both worlds. Most of them suck though, in my opinion...it took me a while to find a good one.
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I'll back up Pete about the thumbpick. The Kelly pick is the best of both worlds; it's a true thumbpick, but flattened like a flatpick; so you can almost think of it as a flatpick with added support. What could be better?
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Now for a view from the other end of the plectrum spectrum. I grew up using picks but I finally found they were too confining. Now the only time I use a pick is when I have to be loud in an acoustic situation. I guess I'm like the guy who enjoys running nude on the beach ... I prefer feeling unrestrained.
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It might interest you that Wes Montgomery never played with a pick. Personally I find it's easier to play with a pick, but if you don't like it - go for the fingers, there's nothing wrong with it!
I used to think used to think playing with a pick gives you more speed, but Wes proved me wrong.
Have a good time,
Avi
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so, picking or fingerstyle? well i do believe that it earl klugh fingerpicks on a classical guitar for the most part but sometimes uses electric (and he always sounds nice). and if u listen to him, you can hear his amazingness. then as avioravioavi said, wes used only his thumb. joe pass used hybrid. george benson will switch according to his mood between thumb, pick, fingers and whatever else he can find to play. i can't think of any jazz guys who played with electric, but i know tommy emmanuel plays guitar with a thumb pick a lot.
where i'm getting at is: u can learn to play in any way if u practice enough. i used to use only fingers, then a teacher told me that that's not good and i had to learn to use the pick. so i used only picks for a couple months. then i saw people play at the same speed and the same stuff basically with their fingers so i started to switch back and forth with pick and fingers. then i heard of wes using his thumb only so i started practicing with my thumb too. now i can play the same exact stuff with my thumb, a pick and the rest of my fingers. the only difference of using it is that u can get slightly different sounds but they always sound good so don't worry bout what you use. just experiment where you play on the strings, how hard you hit them etc. no matter how you play it, it's practice that will really define how it'll sounds like.
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IMHO it is a 100% personal decision. A guy I work with is really into fingerstyle folk music type stuff, and he has re-ignited my interest in dropping the guitar pick in lieu of using my fingers.
For me- it is much easier to play complex arrangements without a pick that is held between my fingers. However, I can play single-note runs much faster with pick
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I agree with all that's been posted. With me it's a matter of personal interpretation. I have a classical background I never use a thumb pick.
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I use a thumbpick all the time. I started off with it becuase my first two teachers were bluegrass and flamenco guys, respectively. I used the thumbpick because despite all the finger oriented stuff, I still wanted to be Jimmy Page.
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i think, disccusing about fingers or pick or both is not as important as to know what's the sound you are looking for and what's the style you feel comfortable with.
I use my fingers since first, because i enjoy darken sounds, probably is not the best sound, and of course is not bright but it´s the sound i like to hear from my guitar. I don't like to pinch the strings, just play them softly, the sound is great for me and i consider it my style.
Trying to play funky i've got a problem, because fingers is not the best strings attack, so i´m trying attacking in a "flamenco" style. It doesn't sound exactly funky but it results a funny dirty sound.
Briefing, play according what you want to hear, every style has a great player using it, so the sound could be great.
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Developing both fingerstyle and pick technique is good. And, if you bring both along, you will probably end up being able to use a pick and also play limited fingerstyle with the free fingers at the same time. I usually comp finger style because I find it much easier to make string skipping voicings that make it easier for me to stay in the tonal center I want. But I normally play lead guitar/solo with a pick. I play classical/flamenco solo guitar as well, so fingerstyle is imperative for that. My advice for anyone that is on the fence on this is to just play styles of music that are best suited for fingerstyle (like classical) but also styles that normally use a pick (like rock/blues and a lot of jazz). That way you get the best of both worlds. With regard to funk though: I actually think fingerstyle gives me more control for the muting necessary for funk rhythms. I use the backs of my fingernails to get a strong percussive sound when I want it. I can also play single notes with the backs of my fingernails while strumming, which gives an interesting sound. This works best on open voicings, though, so that the any unmuted sympathetic vibration on adjoining strings doesn't clash too bad.
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both? depends the Song or Arrangement
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I've just picked up on this discussion so sorry for delayed response. I played ragtime using thumb and finger picks for many years. I now play jazz on a semi accoustic guitar and also found that thumb and finger picks were to staccato and bare fingers just didn't get a good sound or speed. I play hybrid and things improved, however I have found a pick which attaches to the thumb (made by Herco) and available from Strings direct . This was developed by American Bluegrass pickers but is also useful for people who are developing arthritic thumbs. I can play fast runs and still have all four fingers free. It definately works for me with one exception. I cannot get the flick required to play rhythms for chord work in manouche style accompaniments (Django , le Pumpe style). This may be me and I simply revert back to normal pick. For £1.45 GBP its worth a try.
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Try watching the Tuck Andress instructional video if you can get a hold of it. He plays on a 53 L5CES with only fingers on what sounds like light guage strings. Also, I've got a couple of Joe Pass videos where he's using only fingers and he sounds really great. I guess it's just a matter of what feels right for each individual guitarist. I use 13 guage flatwounds through a DeArmond 1100 Rhythm Chief. When I try to do chord melodies with the pick, it sounds too harsh. When I do single line soloing, I sound better with a flat heavy pick.
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I love fingers only, nylon string for jazz and classical!
Sailor
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I use both finger style and pick style and sometimes both fingers and pick although I think some some of the chord melodies are easier to play and more expressive with fingerstyle. Bossanova tunes sound better to me with fingerstyle. Personally, I prefer pick and fingers for octaves because my thumb approach doesn't sound good to me. I guess for me it depends a lot on the music setting (single, duo, small group, big band etc....) and volume requirements.
wiz
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I am like the Wiz. I use mostly fingerstyle for chord melody due to increased expressiveness, but I use pick for rock/blues/jazz ensemble, and I almost always wind up using hybrid picking at some point in a tune.
I think it is important to be able to employ the technique that most suits how you want to approach a song.
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That's exactly my sentiment, Derek. You use the right tool for the job.
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i had the same dilemma some time ago, and ended up using hybrid like a lot of people mentioned already, but that was because i was already using a pick for years so i guess i didn't want to abandon it altogether. But if you feel you are competent enough with fingers, then there's no reason you can't use fingers exclusively. In my opinion, the only thing that a pick makes "easier" is single line soloing, but there are fingerstyle guitarists out there who play as fast and as accurately as players that use picks; if you can get a hold of Alan de Mause's "Jazz guitar etudes" published by Mel Bay i think it will help you..
good luck!
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