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ahh! we're posting simultaneously!
so the short version of my post: useful--yes. beginner stuff--no way.
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01-02-2009 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
On the second, if that the reason why then I understand it but there are people who don't give this reason why.
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well, that's just my reason why...and my opinion is worth what you paid for it! there's just a lot of things i think are more crucial to being able to improvise well than modes. they're like icing, not batter.
i must be hungry. ah, i digress.
in the end, any knowledge that advances your playing or gives you more options when improvising is worthwhile...
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
i asked about the patterns 'cause i was thinking more along the lines of muscle memory rather than theory.
the only thing that honestly confused me was that E phrygian (for example) is just a C major scale played over an E note or chord instead of a C note or chord like i would've before.
like i've said before, this forum has helped inmensely.
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Hey, gabe!
There's another way I can find the modes.
If you know the intervals in a given major scale what I do is simply put the intervals in a descending position (the other way around). We'll take E as the root. For instance, you say that E Phrygian is C major. That's a major third descending interval (remember: the other way around). If you look for the Dorian then you need a major second descending interval and that'll be D major. If you want the Lydian then you need a perfect forth descending interval which is B major. If you want the Mixolydian you need a perfect fifth descending interval which is A major. To get the Aeolian you need a major sixth descending interval which is G major, and if you want the Locrian then you need a major seventh descending interval which is F major.
The same intervals of a major scale used the other way around and their root we'll always be E.
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R 2M 3M 4 5 6M 7M IONIAN
E F# G# A B C# D#
R 2M 3m 4 5 6M 7m DORIAN
E F# G A B C# D
R 2m 3m 4 5 6m 7m PHRYGIAN
E F G A B C D
R 2M 3M 4+ 5 6M 7M LYDIAN
E F# G# A# B C# D#
R 2M 3M 4 5 6M 7m MIXOLYDIAN
E F# G# A B C# D
R 2M 3m 4 5 6m 7m AEOLIAN
E F# G A B C D
R 2m 3m 4 5- 6m 7m LOCRIAN
E F G A Bb C D
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I found this which helped me:
Guitar Modes & Scales - The Best Beginner's Guide
A quick intro to modes is this..... dorian, phrygian and aeolian are minor;
lydian and mixolydian are major. Locrian is for altered minor chords (flat 9).
They are all either major or minor scales with one or more raised or lowered notes.
So..Phrygian is the third mode ( for use with minor chords )....if you want to play a Phrygianised D minor, just find which major scale has a D as the third.......looks like B flat major to me. So...play the notes of B flat major, from D root to D.
Bflatmaj: Bflat, C, D, Eflat, F, G, A, Bflat.
D Phryg: D, Eflat, F, G, A, Bflat,C, D.
See?
Notes of D minor are D, F, A.
D minor7 has D, F, A and C.
None of the notes of Bflatmaj will clash with the Dminor chords (that is what we get into modes to do:to be able to modify scales but avoid clashes with chord tones) .....but look at the second note in D Phrygian....a half-step from I to II! Looks like a natural minor scale with a flatted second.
It is the flatting of this note which gives Phrygian it character...what that is depends on how you personally interpret it, as a musician.
Many say it sounds Spanish or Middle Eastern. The truth is that it sounds like a Phrygianised D minor!!!!
You really need to know major and minor scale theory before starting with the modes.
All other modes worked out in exactly the same way.
After my long and painful study of this subject, I welcome feedback on my 'take' on this.
Hope it helps someone. And by the way, don't shy away from the flat keys at the beginning....I made the mistake of staying with C and D and A and E and G early on; progress generally should be quicker if your study encompasses all the keys. Modes use flatted notes!!Last edited by wordsmith; 01-19-2009 at 05:25 PM.
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Hi, Wordsmith!
There are plenty of websites (even this one) that teach the modes. In my opinio, after playing the guitar for 20 years I believe that the modes are usually badly explained or also usually very briefly explained. I believe that the best explanation for a begginer is to tell him/her that the modes are 7 different tonalities making them start on the same note wich is the root.
After all the analisy I did on the past 2 months to find the way to find each one of them easily (I did succeed!) I'm happy because now I know what each note is and what it represents on the mode.
Take care!
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Hi Claudi !
I agree with you on all the confusion, and that's why I'm trying to present it in a way that a total beginner on the modes could grasp. It's not easy, is it?
I posted info in "Theory" about a website I found. The author emailed me to reply to my "thanks a lot" message, and mentioned exactly the same thing as you. He had a lesson with a local 'guru', who suggested the same as you...start on a certain note and play all the modes from that, to get the feel of them. If you start on C, for example, I would suggest using a C pedal-tone as you play the various modes, to add context.
I am in no way an advanced theorist, but I enjoy trying to get it into words. I have a journalism background, and I've often had to write on subjects I knew little about !!
Take care!
And thanks for giving me my first reply!
PS: Could one say that Locrian is Phrygian flat 5?Last edited by wordsmith; 01-20-2009 at 06:36 PM. Reason: new thought
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...cor blimey, not so easy, but here goes......
Two modes go into a bar.
First mode asks "Can you buy me a really phrygian cold beer?"
Second mode says "Sorry, I owe Liana few too many dollars already". (I owe Lian..6th mode)
(Christian name got from a website)
Pathetic, reallyLast edited by wordsmith; 02-04-2009 at 08:16 AM. Reason: add explanation
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Not sure if this is what you mean but certainly the way to bring home your mode study is the following.
First of course learn the modes from their own starting point (taking C as an example) So Ionian C D E F G A B and just go to dorian starting from D and playing the same notes and so on untill you have the basic paterns down.
Now to get those basic shapes into a full working scale the following exercise is brilliant.
Take melodies using a single scale preferably with a backing track, perhaps on band in a box if you have it or a metronome works.
Start playing the melodies over and over again, each time a new loop starts play it on a new position on the fretboard without pause.
Doing this will really open up the modes and the fretboard for you, once you can do it, start doing more advanced melodies and arpegios.
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I've given up on modes. I may revisit them in 5 years or so but there's so much more for me to get right first. I need to have robotic arps and scales, better phrasing,more jazz language,learn from sax greats,speed up,retain standards. I've decided (that's me) modes are just a distraction.
Oh and I need to be much better intelligent
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Wise choice, and I'm a pro and get modes, modal and just about anything else with music. Get your technical skills together.... your guitar technical skills.... if you can't play your instrument... all the knowledge in the world won't help you.
Last edited by Reg; 10-11-2019 at 08:25 AM.
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What are robotic arps?
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You only need one scale, that’s the mixolydian/dominant. This can be applied on everything, but it’s just the one fingering.
If you are being fancy you can add in the melodic minor at some point down the line.
Not so bad now, right?
You do need to develop musical ways of turning these scales into lines.... but that’s a separate issue.
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Actually I should say that I internalized modes more or less thanks to Reg's approach... I am not sure I am using it exactly as he does... but this was the first time when in real practice I began to hear modes as something that can be meaningful valueable and something with musical reference...
but by that moment I was already quite experienced in traditional functional harmony and also common jazz turnarounds, cadences and so on ... I think it is important. In that case that 'modes thing' is becoming just a part of bigger picture you have... (sometimes it seems that people begin to learn modes and a mode it is the only thing they actually see (even not hear but just see on the fretboard) - they do not realate it to anything in harmonic or melodic context, do not see overall form of a song - its realtions to the other forms and so and so on... of course it makes it frustrating... like mindlessly repeating some steps you do not understand.Last edited by Jonah; 09-24-2019 at 04:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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The modes are less important when you don't think about them while playing. The practice of the intervals, what they sound and what position to play them, is much more important to me: play the notes you can pre-hear by a good knowing of your fretboard.
I don't know if it is understandable...
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So most guitarist think of modes as starting a major scale from each scale degree. They,(we) call the Ionian, dorian etc...
But if you get into modes and modal concepts... you'll get into different organization for controlling harmonic movement.
Most get Tonic, dominant and subdominant Functional harmony... eg V7 resolving to Imaj. ie, Dominant resolving to Tonic. Think unstable moving to stable. Anyway functional harmony uses Ionian as source for creating chord movement... What are the notes and which notes control the chord movement. When you get into Modal concepts.... each mode has characteristic note(s) and different modes have different notes that control the Chord movement.... more of Dominant to Tonic type of guidlines. But when you become more familiar with different modes... you can begin to expand functional chord movement. Much like how when you begin to understand basic harmony... you begin to see and hear expanded applications.
As stated above by Jonah... sort of, Music basically uses everything. You mix and match all types of theory, harmony, rules of thumb, what ever you feel like in the moment. Modes and Modal Concepts are just one of many Harmonic application which can help you play and also play other peoples music.
**** As I said before.... Technique is much more important than any theoretical or harmonic concept.****
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Gabe -
Reading the thread, seems like you've got the basic idea. We know what modes are, etc etc.
There are two ways of using them. One is the modal jazz way where the chords are sparse and modes are played over them to produce a certain sound (like D and Eb Dorian over Dm and Ebm as in 'So What').
The other is knowing how to use them in more standard tunes so the notes fit the chords properly.
For instance, say you had a progression like CM7 - Eb7 - Dm7/G7 - CM7. The Eb7 is non-diatonic to C major.
One might assume you just play the Ab major scale over it (Eb7 is the V chord of Ab) but it wouldn't sound quite right because you aren't actually in the key of Ab at that point, you're still in C. But if you play the Eb Lydian Dominant mode (from Bb melodic minor) over it then you get the right sound because the natural A note keeps it in tune with C major.
Say the Eb7 above was EbM7 instead. Then you'd play the Eb Lydian over it (Bb maj) for the same reason, the natural A. Non-diatonic chords are usually given the Lydian treatment. Try recording those two examples and you'll hear it.
Take a more complex tune like 'Iris' by Wayne Shorter. Those chords are:
Fm11 - % - EM7 - GbM7
Bb7b13 - Db7 - AbM7#5 - %
Cm7 - % - Db7 - Cm7
What on earth does one do with that? That's where a sound knowledge of modes comes in, and I think that's more their usefulness than just doing Dorian over Dm7.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
But I need to sit down and work it out. It’s never far away from the blues....
Modal jazz is, I think poorly taught. It should be possible to apply one’s language in different contexts. I could play bop over that progression once I’d practiced it. One can play bop over non functional tunes... Brecker was amazing at that for instance.
You can obviously play modes on standards otoh. And obviously you can do the pentatonic thing to.
(Wayne so often plays penta that I wonder if there aren’t some nifty ways of using the scale to unify disparate chords some of in his progressions.)
You have to understand how to put everything you know on every context. You might call that modal knowledge but it boils down to the same thing, which is knowing you can play a C dominant bebop scale on Gm7 and Levine will call it another scale lol. It’s not wrong, you just have to see past the terminology.
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The non functional major chords being Lydian. I used to think this. Now I’m not so sure. Some nonfunctional stuff sounds a bit wrong with #11.
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Possibly, but Lydian is usually the norm.
As for the Iris thing, it's like this, following the ideas above:
Fm11 - F Dorian (Eb maj)
EM7 - E Lydian (B maj)
GbM7 - Gb Lydian (Db maj)
Bb7b13 - Bb W/T or Alt (B mel)
Db7 - Db Lyd Dom (Ab mel)
AbM#5 - F mel (probably)
Cm7/Dbm7 - Dorian
Dbm-6 - Db W/T (probably)
Mind you, I wouldn't necessarily run through 'scales', there are arps, triads and other things to consider. Actually a lot easier, as I'm sure you know. I tend not to overdo the CST and try other things. In any case, I'm fairly minimal these days.
Yes, I thought Wayne's original soloing wasn't quite up to scratch either. Shame, it's a brilliant head. But he probably improved it thereafter; he'd have realised it himself. He was better with Miles.
Chief Xian aTunde Adjuah (Christian Scott)
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