The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    ok... so, my question is: do the 7 modes of the major scale have movable patterns one can practice with backing tracks?

    the reason i ask is not laziness (maybe a lil' ), it's because i'm still a beginner with theory and constructing stuff sometimes feel like rocket science. plus, i'd like to train my ear and i wouldn't want to come up with a screwed up pattern or something.

    ps: modes also kind of give me a headache... but in a good sort of way they're hard but interesting.

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  3. #2

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    I'm a long time classical but new to jazz player; I've finally arrived at a system where I'm (1) learning chords to standards, (2) melodies in a couple positions, and (3) ARPS over changes. I'm letting the modes take care of themselves for a while!!

    Major, minor, pentatonic, some dorian and mixo, but keeping it simple for now as to not burn out brain!!

    Sailor

  4. #3

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    One way to learn the modes, and build your theory chops as well, is to learn the ionian mode and then just change one note to build the other modes.

    Take any fingering of your major scale, one or two octaves, and then use this forumla to build the other modes.

    Lydian - raise the 4th note

    Mixolydian - lower the 7th note

    Dorian - lower the 7th and 3rd notes

    Aeolian - lower the 7th, 3rd and 6th notes

    Phrygian - lower the 7th, 3rd, 6th and 2nd notes

    Locrian - lower the 7th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd and 5th notes.

    If you notice, starting with Lydian and moving down the chart you are only lowering one note each time to produce the next mode.

    Lydian - #4
    Ionian - b4
    Mixolydian - b7
    Dorian - b3
    Aeolian - b6
    Phrygian - b2
    Locrain - b5

    It's a good way to work out the modes because you are constantly relating every fingering back to one that you already know. It also helps get the sound of each mode into your ears as when you practice all the different modes in a row you start to hear how each gets "darker" as you move down the chart.

    MW

  5. #4

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    How about just staring on different notes too?? For dorian I just start on RE and be mindful of the key signature!!

    Sailor

  6. #5

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    first of all, thanks for the replies Matt and sailor.

    now, hehe... this is where idiocy takes over for me and i feel like i'm learning rocket science to brush my teeth. it seems simple enough but i get confused...

    i understand the raising and lowering of the notes but what gets me confused is this: when i change a pattern, which mode am i fingering? where's my root? does it change or stays the same and how do i apply it?

    for instance, let's say i take i take the G major scale. i'll use this pattern:
    1---5-7-8--
    2---5-7-8--
    3--4-5-7---
    4--4-5-7---
    5-3-5-7----
    6-3-5-7----
    (sorry for the bad illustration )

    my roots are in the 6 string 3rd fret, 4th string 5th fret and 2nd string 8th fret.

    so, the way i'm understanding it is: when i change the pattern my root will be on the frets i mentioned. so i'll be making G ionian (the major scale), G dorian, G phrygian, G lydian, G mixolydian, G aeolian and G locrian. but, should i practice them playing them over G chords or should the chord be the key they're in? (i.e: G dorian is the 2nd degree of F major, G phrygian is the 3rd degree of E major, etc)

    i might have some mistakes, like i said... i'm still kinda new to theory, but so far this has been the most challenging thing besides ear training.

    and, again, thanks for the replies guys.

  7. #6

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    There are a number of ways to learn the modes. I will give you the method I use with students, which seems to get the most mileage for me.

    I teach the major (Ionian) and natural minor (Aeolian) scales first. After getting those down in at least 2 positions, then I lay the major scale down on fretboard paper in black ink. For Mixolydian mode, the only difference is the addition of the b7, and I note that in blue ink on the above pattern. This way they can see that note in the major scale patterns they already know. Lydian just adds the #4, and I put that in blue, so they see where it lies on the pattern.

    For minor, I do the same, adding the notes different from the natural minor scale in a different color, which covers Dorian, Phrygian and Locrian. This way, by using two basic scales, students can easily create these other sounds without learning new patterns, or thinking, "okay I am in Bb, what is Lydian?" or such. This is a good starting point, but I do think it is important to absorb more about the modes later on.

    That is just the modes of the major scale, then there are the modes of the melodic minor and harmonic minor scales.

    I have written the above everytime a modes confused poster writes, so forgive me if you have seen this before.
    Last edited by derek; 12-16-2008 at 06:27 PM. Reason: disclaimer

  8. #7

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    hey derek, thanks for the reply.

    to be honest, i am not really sure about what i know and what i don't know... since i'm learning this alone, i don't even know if i'm going in the correct order.

    this is what i know: the major scale and 7 patterns i can move across the fretboard to play in any key; the pentatonic scale and 5 patterns i can move across the fretboard to play in any key; the natural minor scale, but just 1 pattern.

    what i don't know or am not sure about: melodic minor scale, harmonic minor scale, modes. there is more stuff i'm not sure about but that is easier than scales and modes.

    i have seen that explanation before in videos from Joe Satriani and Vinnie Moore but i still get a little confused with the application. i still appreciate the explanation though.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe2099
    ok... so, my question is: do the 7 modes of the major scale have movable patterns one can practice with backing tracks?

    the reason i ask is not laziness (maybe a lil' ), it's because i'm still a beginner with theory and constructing stuff sometimes feel like rocket science. plus, i'd like to train my ear and i wouldn't want to come up with a screwed up pattern or something.

    ps: modes also kind of give me a headache... but in a good sort of way they're hard but interesting.
    Screwed up Pattern?????
    Sounds like Jazz ta me!! jus flat da 5th and it will be Blues!!

  10. #9

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    Gabe - Derek and Matt know their theory and answered beautifully, but I think you are still in need of more conceptual basics. There are lots of theory books and on-line stuff. Start at the beginning and go slow!!

    For now, think C-C Ionian, D-D dorian, etc... keeping in mind the KEY signature, no sharps or flats in any C modes. Also look around this site or ask about the harmonized major and minor scales, shows all the chords associated with KEYS.

    Just how I look at it, believe me, no expert!!

    Sailor

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor
    Gabe - Derek and Matt know their theory and answered beautifully, but I think you are still in need of more conceptual basics. There are lots of theory books and on-line stuff. Start at the beginning and go slow!!

    For now, think C-C Ionian, D-D dorian, etc... keeping in mind the KEY signature, no sharps or flats in any C modes. Also look around this site or ask about the harmonized major and minor scales, shows all the chords associated with KEYS.

    Just how I look at it, believe me, no expert!!

    Sailor
    i wholeheartedly agree, i think i have too many "holes" in between what i know. i do need more conceptual basics...

    and i didn't mean to imply their answers were bad, it's just that i get that part of the modes (how to construct -or build- them) what i don't get is which chord or chords i could use in a jam track to play each to get more familiarized with the sounds.

    with the C modes it would be like you said? a C chord for C Ionian, a D chord for D dorian and so on and so forth...?

    my apologies if i seem too thick headed (or dumb... ) i just get confused.

  12. #11

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    Gabe - believe me, I have more holes in my playing than anyone and I have a music degree!!

    A lot of the guys on this site are very advanced and I think sometimes it's hard for them to Really bring it down to basics.

    For me, it's easiest to think of the modes as all occuring in the one key that they stem from. I used C as a starting point. There are 7 modes that can be played from the C ionian "notes".

    As far as what chords to play, we have to look at the key signature and harmonize the seven scale tones. I, C is major , ii D is minor, ( no F# in key sign), iii E is minor, (no G# in key sign), IV, F is Major.........

    I hope this helps a little bit. I've decided to focus on playing melodies, and ARPS through the changes primarily, rather than think about each mode too much.I hope I'm right.

    Sailor

  13. #12

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    i might have spent all my "question points" in this one thread already...

    i think the problem was that i didn't phrase my question right (but i'm working on my phrasing ), matt and derek got basic enough, the problem is me.

    but i think i got the idea now, if i were to just practice the modes from C, i would use a C chord to get the sound of C Ionian (since it's the major scale), Dm or Dm7 to get the sound of D Dorian, Em or Em7 to get the sound of E phrygian, Fmaj or Fmaj7 to get the sound of F Lydian, etc...

    i realize i can get too complicated sometimes, but i think i'm more clear now. again, thanks for all the replies guys, i appreciate you all taking the time to help.

    edit: i got more help from Dr. Wik E. Pedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propert..._musical_modes, now y'all can rest hehe.
    Last edited by Gabe2099; 12-16-2008 at 11:41 PM.

  14. #13

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    Hi, all!
    Gabe2099, you have to have very clear that the modes are seven different tonalities that share the same root.

    Here's a chart I worked out with Matt's approval.
    Let's start with the tonality of Cmajor, though you can start with whichever the note you like:

    C 2M 3M 4 5 6M 7M
    D 2M 3m 4 5 6M 7m
    E 2m 3m 4 5 6m 7m
    F 2M 3M 4+ 5 6M 7M
    G 2M 3M 4 5 6M 7m
    A 2M 3m 4 5 6m 7m
    B 2m 3m 4 5- 6m 7m

    Okay, these are the chords you can take from any major scale. Now we change the roots to just one single note and keep the intervals written before.

    C 2M 3M 4 5 6M 7M IONIAN
    C 2M 3m 4 5 6M 7m DORIAN
    C 2m 3m 4 5 6m 7m PHRYGIAN
    C 2M 3M 4+ 5 6M 7M LYDIAN
    C 2M 3M 4 5 6M 7m MIXOLYDIAN
    C 2M 3m 4 5 6m 7m AEOLIAN
    C 2m 3m 4 5- 6m 7m LOCRIAN

    Hope you can understand it better now.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe2099

    but i think i got the idea now, if i were to just practice the modes from C, i would use a C chord to get the sound of C Ionian (since it's the major scale), Dm or Dm7 to get the sound of D Dorian, Em or Em7 to get the sound of E phrygian, Fmaj or Fmaj7 to get the sound of F Lydian, etc...
    Not exactly. Playing the arps for those chords won't give you all the intervals of those modes. If you play Dm7, you'll be playing the 1,b3,5,b7. But, Dorian mode has the 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7.

    In my opinion, Matt's original response to you is the best way to look at the modes of the major scale, i.e. as just scales that have a particular intervallic formula.

    Don't worry about the derivation of the modes, and don't restrict yourself to thinking about keys.

    Dorian Mode, for instance, is nothing but a scale with the intervals 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7.

    If you play those intervals in any key, you will be playing Dorian. You can play Dorian over any chord you wish. It will sound the most harmonically stable over minor 7th chords, though because Dorian mode shares the b3 and the b7 with them. But you could play Dorian over a Dominant 7 as well. This is common in blues. The b3 played against the M3 of the Dom 7 chord will give you tension and will sound bluesy. Basically, it is the same as playing a 7#9 arp over a Dom 7.

    Anyway, I was baffled by the modes until I just started looking at them as yet another scale, with a specific intervallic formula, then it seemed pretty easy to apply.

    About the patterns: yes, the modes will have a distinctive pattern that is indeed moveable, just like all other scales or arps played on the guitar. But, my advice would be not to memorize the patterns, but instead take the time to identify the intervals of the mode and relate it to chord voicings that are most commonly used with the mode. That way you will begin to recognize pattern of intervals surrounding the chord tones, which is more useful than just knowing a pattern (in my opinion).

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofsus4
    Anyway, I was baffled by the modes until I just started looking at them as yet another scale, with a specific intervallic formula, then it seemed pretty easy to apply.

    About the patterns: yes, the modes will have a distinctive pattern that is indeed moveable, just like all other scales or arps played on the guitar. But, my advice would be not to memorize the patterns, but instead take the time to identify the intervals of the mode and relate it to chord voicings that are most commonly used with the mode. That way you will begin to recognize pattern of intervals surrounding the chord tones, which is more useful than just knowing a pattern (in my opinion).
    Yes, this is the easiest approach starting out imo, which is the reason I like teaching them as scales related back to the major or natural minor scales. I am also of the opinion that modes are overrated as useful improvisational material.

    The standard starting out modal approach to a ii V I progression in C is to play D Dorian over ii (D-7)chord, G Mixolydian over V (G7), and C Ionian over I (Cmajor7). However, by doing this, you are only playing notes of the C major scale over the whole thing, which sounds pretty bland imo. I don't happen to think it is a productive way to start out hearing the modes.

    The way we derive the modes is the same basic way we derive the chords. Lay out the notes in a C major scale on the staff. Take each note and stack it in 3rds, which is the way most chords are built. This will yield Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7 and B-7b5 (aka half diminished).

    By starting and ending the C major scale from each of these tones, you get the various modes. So D to D = Dorian, E to E = Phrygian, etc. It was confusing to thing about this way at first for me. See each as it's own scale and learning the intervals found in each is the best way starting out imo.
    Last edited by derek; 12-17-2008 at 04:59 PM.

  17. #16

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    it's a lot clearer now since i read your posts and the article in wikipedia. i'm not that confused now, now i just lack the knowledge but that's fine, i can learn. i'll take the advice and just look at each as its own scale and learn the intervals, it really is easier that way...

    thanks guys and sorry if i got annoying, sometimes all i need is just a kick in the rear end to stop confusing myself.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe2099
    ...but, should i practice them playing them over G chords or should the chord be the key they're in? (i.e: G dorian is the 2nd degree of F major, G phrygian is the 3rd degree of E major, etc)
    I think this is the key question. I've been trying to understand this topic for ages, and can never get a straight answer to the question above.

    This is what I get clear so far:
    - Modes are basically starting points on a given major scale
    - The name you give to that "path" down the scale depends on which starting point you choose ( start on the 2nd, this is "II dorian", ex D Dorian)

    I understand there are three ways to use this:

    A given chord progression : Will be "in the key of ...". So if this is a progression "in the key of C", if you are to play over a Dm7 chord, you could choose to start the C scale on the second point, D, and you will be playing a "D dorian".

    A given chord : So you have a one chord tune or section...it only plays the D chord forever. Then you decide to go creative and start throwing all kind of combinations, D dorian followed by D mixolydian, followed by D something. This is what Joe Satriani calls the Pitch Axis theory. (ok, he is not officially a jazz guy)

    A mix of the two above : You are on the C chord progression, and then when Dm7 comes, you play D Phrygian, making everyone fall out off their seats.

    This is what I have gotten clear so fast. Rest assured I can't do neither of them. Just try to play what comes to my mind...someday I'll finally get it...

  19. #18

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    haha this just hit me in the head after i read HotClubBrampton's post...

    another way to relate the modes is, instead of remembering all the flats and the sharps, just to relate it to the major scale to remember the notes in each mode.

    i.e:

    B Ionian = B major scale
    B Dorian = A major scale starting on the ii over a B minor chord
    B Phrygian = G major scale starting on the iii (M or m?) over a B minor chord
    B Lydian = F major starting on the IV over a B major chord
    etc...
    C Phrygian = A major scale starting on the ii over a C minor chord

    of course, this is for practice purposes, to listen to the sound of each mode and not really saying their only application would be that. their use is a different topic and a bit advanced for me right now.

    i really hope i'm right on this one, i felt a tingly feeling in the back of the neck when it hit me.

    edit: i wanted to clarify, i understand it is important to understand how to construct each mode and the intervals in it and all. i just thought this system is easier when it comes to remembering the notes on a particular mode faster.
    Last edited by Gabe2099; 12-18-2008 at 02:16 AM.

  20. #19

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    I found the following mode instruction helpful,

    http://www.johnhguitar.com/john-heus...ns-Modes01.php

    start at course 6.
    Last edited by aginv; 12-26-2008 at 08:31 PM.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe2099
    haha this just hit me in the head after i read HotClubBrampton's post...

    another way to relate the modes is, instead of remembering all the flats and the sharps, just to relate it to the major scale to remember the notes in each mode.

    i.e:

    B Ionian = B major scale
    B Dorian = A major scale starting on the ii over a B minor chord
    B Phrygian = G major scale starting on the iii (M or m?) over a B minor chord
    B Lydian = F major starting on the IV over a B major chord
    etc...
    C Phrygian = A major scale starting on the ii over a C minor chord


    of course, this is for practice purposes, to listen to the sound of each mode and not really saying their only application would be that. their use is a different topic and a bit advanced for me right now.

    i really hope i'm right on this one, i felt a tingly feeling in the back of the neck when it hit me.

    edit: i wanted to clarify, i understand it is important to understand how to construct each mode and the intervals in it and all. i just thought this system is easier when it comes to remembering the notes on a particular mode faster.
    Watchout!!! You have a couple of mistakes here: I marked them in red. B lydian comes from F# major, not F major and C phrygian comes from Ab major, not A major.
    Here's where knowing your key signatures comes in handy. It doesn't take long to memorize them...there's 12 key signatures, learn 2/day and in a week you'll know them.
    Hope 2009 is your year!

  22. #21

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    Sorry, newbie here. What is meant by ARPS?

  23. #22

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    no need to apologize we all were told at one time what an ARP is. It's short for arpeggio which means that you play only the notes that make up the chord. If the chord is for example C major then its arp is C, E, G, if the chord is A7, its arp is: A, C#, E, G

  24. #23

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    I wouldn't worry about modes until I was very fluent in all KEY SIGNATURES. Major and minor first!

    Sailor

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robjzgtr
    Watchout!!! You have a couple of mistakes here: I marked them in red. B lydian comes from F# major, not F major and C phrygian comes from Ab major, not A major.
    Here's where knowing your key signatures comes in handy. It doesn't take long to memorize them...there's 12 key signatures, learn 2/day and in a week you'll know them.
    Hope 2009 is your year!
    that was an honest mistake, my brain function starts going downhill after 12:00 am...

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor
    I wouldn't worry about modes until I was very fluent in all KEY SIGNATURES. Major and minor first!

    Sailor
    Totally agreed. The modes simply are 7 tonalities but they all have the same root.