The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #151

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    If someone says to me 'modes' the automatic response is to go through the explanations of scales from non-root to non-root, etc, ad nauseam. But in practice it just means using a (usually familiar) scale in a musical way to get the desired result, like C major over Dm7 rather than F or Bb major. In any case, it wouldn't be D harmonic minor because of the C natural.

    Just common sense, really. All they've done, with modal tunes, is taken the Dm7 out of the usual 2-5-1 context. But the same 'rules' apply. And, just to be difficult, as it's jazz, you can still use the harmonic and melodic notes anyway for interest's sake :-)

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  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea as I posted after 1st new comment by John Tom, "I'm giving up on Modes". I commented,

    "Wise choice, and I'm a pro and get modes, modal and just about anything else with music. Get your technical skills together.... your guitar technical skills.... if you can't play your instrument... all the knowledge in the world won't help you."

    But we must enjoy going through the process of venting. I perform with many great musicians that don't get modes or modal and don't care about them. Some are very vanilla, some can really play and many are somewhere in the middle. But most do have their technical skills together. The results are very obvious to musicians, but not many musicians check out live music, so who cares.

    Musicianship isn't that complicated, you don't need musical degrees and years of studies. I was playing gigs long before I went through the education process, I went to music schools to learn how to compose, arrange, learn terminology, theory etc.. I did learn better organizational systems for developing better musicianship. I don't believe it hurt my playing, but I could already play and sight read. All the scales, from each degree, arps, chords, etc... basic technical skill on guitar were worked by the time I was in High school.

    The transcribing drills, playing by ear, and on and on were also just part of basic musicianship. I am talking 60's and 70's, if you didn't have your skills together, you didn't get a chance to play out much. I still enjoy performing live. I don't enjoy memorize and perform gigs. I love playing new music live... just as I did as a kid. Part of the Jazz performance skills thing.

    Maybe it's just that most weren't performing back when modal concepts were part of performing jazz. Live jazz etc... I'm older and was playing jazz gigs and the modal sounds and styles were cool, the concepts opened tunes for incredible live improv. The interact and react thing. The music scene was still alive, jazz was on the rise. Sorry.... yea dump the mode and modal things.

    I think it's interesting that most don't seem to understand modal music concepts beyond giving examples. Again who cares.
    1) fucking boomers
    2) yes I think this is the key point. You have to be out there playing. I’m lucky I’ve done some gigs, I found a niche, which equipped me with some basic stuff, although I got tired of that style.
    3) knowing what a student needs to know and in what order might save them time I spaffed away on bullshit

  4. #153

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    Yea Rag... you just use what you believe to be modal, and the term mode, doesn't mean much anymore. Pretty standard approach.
    But... again who cares.

    BOOMERS, there are definitely different views of what works, when we just use our ears. It is also fun at gigs during breaks or in pits to have music discussions, when the theory being discussed is about what we're playing. It's interesting how many players don't recognize basic harmonic structure and how it functions within Form. I know I have to define some really basic shit sometimes, gently.

  5. #154

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    Yeah, we get hung up on words. I guess because it's easier to argue aboutI was playing the Egyptian by Curtis Fuller this week. 1966. So like a Asus very "blues" thing to an E phyrgian dominant idea. I suppose a "modal" tune. Did I need modes to play it? No. Did modes somehow hurt my ability to be creative or some garbage? Nope. Certainly different from using a mode/scale to access a sound on a tune with more/functional changes. But it's all mapping, posibilities, you can play what you know or see what else is out there...it's all just organizing the same 12 notes, no magic.

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Of all the topics in playing Jazz, the modes is one that inevitably presents the big fundamental question that Reg is raising - how do you acquire technical skills? // It looks like there are basically two extreme answers: //- the analytical preparation - deliberately learning to "play any scale starting on any scale degree, or arpeggio from any degree again anywhere on the fretboard" kind of thing, and ultimately capturing all of melody, harmony, and rhythm in this comprehensive approach. This is the Berklee and similar music schools' method and philosophy of attempting to be able to do everything so as to be able to do anything. For the development of pros that anticipate needing to be able to do whatever comes up or is required, this is the canonical music training system. //- the prehensile ear - as in "everything you need to know may be heard within and grasp from the songs you want to perform". This is the listen, play, and learn method and philosophy of attempting to more directly be able to do everything you want to do and not attempting to potentially be able to do things that may never come up... to paraphrase Wes, "I only practice things that I would play in songs during a performance". //Of course most of us are somewhere in the middle of these extremes, so the question remains: How do we acquire technical skills (and is, or how is, learning about the modes part of that)? It's a tough question because it really depends on experience. One who has studied so that they think about keys, notes, scale degrees, other formal music structure etc. is challenged to confront a couple of methodologically different explanatory interpretations of what the modes are and how to grasp them and apply them. On the other hand, those who play by ear may intuit that in an abstract sense, especially because of the diatonic basis for Western music forms, so many series of pitches may be technically interpreted as some mode of something or a part of various modes of other somethings, one might wonder if they are ever not playing some mode!?
    Now my "Like" button doesn't seem to work. Good points.

  7. #156

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    I am no expert by any means, but thinking about modes kinda allows me to spread out. The accented intervals lead me to other accented intervals then to resolutions. I view the aspects that get exposed in my playing as springboards to creativity. That said, it is mostly from an intuitive perspective for me. I kinda know what I am doing, but if I stopped to figure it all out on paper I would be in for some serious brain damage. Hat's off to those that figure it all out, but I am a hobbyist for sure.
    Last edited by lammie200; 10-11-2019 at 12:38 PM.

  8. #157

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    I learned from five teachers over a course of 5+ decades. Mostly, these are names you might know. I've already dragged Warren Nunes into this, but I'll leave the others out for now. //Compared to a structured approach like Berklee's, this was more of a patchwork, with some patches missing. I got a lot of good stuff from it, but there are a couple of things I now consider important which none of my teachers ever broached. //1. Ear training. Nobody ever said, "kid, you can improve your ear and here's how." //2. Surprisingly, transcription. Nobody ever pushed it. Of course, I knew about it because every musician, myself included, eventually wants to copy something from a recording. But, I was never assigned to transcribe anything. Maybe because the teachers were concerned about driving their students away? //3. The basic skill of singing a line and playing it a moment later -- with the goal of playing it simultaneously. I now practice this in a structured way. Comping through a section of a tune while scat singing, and then repeating the section while playing the line I sang. One of the things I learned from doing this is that I'm already able to imagine better lines than I was playing without singing. This suggests that the cutting edge for me is not to be learning new sounds from, say, combinations of random triads and bass notes. Rather, it's to be able to play the sounds I can already hear in my mind. Doing this at a gig or jam requires some discipline. //4. There was never any scat singing. Looks odd even as I write this. But, there's an argument that the best lines are the ones that you can sing from the heart. And, arguably, a great way to expand one's repertoire of sounds would be to start by singing them. I believe that this is done in some programs. I have read that Herb Ellis scatted whenever he was soloing, presumably for this reason. One guess as to why it wasn't included is that it's harder than learning a new fingering pattern. Also, that my teachers mostly thought of the lessons from the point of view of guitar, not music in general. //

  9. #158

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    I've never understood the singing lark. I can sing but la-la-ing some 'jazz lines' with my voice... I wouldn't know where to start. It would be rubbish. I don't even have to try it to know that!

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea Rag... you just use what you believe to be modal, and the term mode, doesn't mean much anymore. Pretty standard approach.
    But... again who cares.

    BOOMERS, there are definitely different views of what works, when we just use our ears. It is also fun at gigs during breaks or in pits to have music discussions, when the theory being discussed is about what we're playing. It's interesting how many players don't recognize basic harmonic structure and how it functions within Form. I know I have to define some really basic shit sometimes, gently.
    No I mean to say Boomers grew up in a time when there was a music industry and gigs to be had every night.

    People still gig every night here in London, but it seems that this is not true everywhere.

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I've never understood the singing lark. I can sing but la-la-ing some 'jazz lines' with my voice... I wouldn't know where to start. It would be rubbish. I don't even have to try it to know that!
    I sing while I play but tbh I’m not really aware of it, just hear it on playback. I find it a bit annoying, more Keith Jarrett than George Benson haha.

    But singing is a traditionally a good way to access the aural side of the brain...

  12. #161

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    more Keith Jarrett than George Benson
    Or Glenn Gould even :-)

    Unless I am actually singing - i.e. a song - I'm too busy looking at what I'm doing. I'd say it was probably a distraction to sing as well. I definitely know what a played line will sound like but I've no desire to sing along with it (although I could if I wanted to). I'm probably feeling the whole thing much more internally, which might be my way of 'singing' it. To me, singing a note with feeling is the same as playing a note with feeling; it seems unnecessary to do both together.

    But I suppose the singing must have a point otherwise people wouldn't do it.
    Last edited by ragman1; 10-12-2019 at 07:11 PM.

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Or Glen Gould even :-)

    Unless I am actually singing - i.e. a song - I'm too busy looking at what I'm doing. I'd say it was probably a distraction to sing as well. I definitely know what a played line will sound like but I've no desire to sing along with it (although I could if I wanted to). I'm probably feeling the whole thing much more internally, which might be my way of 'singing' it. To me, singing a note with feeling is the same as playing a note with feeling; it seems unnecessary to do both together.

    But I suppose the singing must have a point otherwise people wouldn't do it.
    When I sing, I notice that the rhythmic content of my solos is more varied and the melodic content is usually something I wouldn't otherwise play. I can probably access more harmonic variation using theoretical considerations than I can really sing (e.g. tough to sing a side-slipped line), but I think the sung lines have a little more feeling. Overall, I think the biggest benefit is in rhythmic content.

  14. #163

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    How do you do it? Do you record what you sing in rehearsal then work it out on the guitar? You're surely not saying you sing impromptu in performance and simultaneously play it as well!

    Or are you?

  15. #164

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    How can you navigate the instrument if you don't "map" the right notes in all positions.



    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t understand how this (true) statement relates to the subject of modes.
    Now that the maintenance issue is over (thanks guys for all the time I know must have gone into it) it's back to modes.

    I felt from the first post that the OP was looking for a basic map of the board to get all the stops in any key or position.
    I didn't get the impression that the OP was looking for any heavy theory of which mode over what chord etc and honestly don't think
    that it works in a sub-topic of "Getting Started"...but I could have missed the nuance.

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    How do you do it? Do you record what you sing in rehearsal then work it out on the guitar? You're surely not saying you sing impromptu in performance and simultaneously play it as well!

    Or are you?
    I've been practicing it by comping a few bars at a time of a tune and scatting. After a few bars, I play what I just sang. Then, I proceed to the next few bars and sing another line, trying to develop the original idea.

    In performance, there are some people who do it Benson style, with a mic, even singing harmony, but I've never tried that. I find that, when I'm relaxed enough, I can scat and play simultaneously. I don't usually achieve 100% correspondence and I'm not even sure that's the goal. But, I do notice that it improves the solo. The negative is that it takes a lot of concentration -- and I worry that I may not be listening to the other players as attentively as I should because I'm thinking too hard about putting the scatted line on the guitar.

  17. #166

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    I'm thinking too hard about putting the scatted line on the guitar
    Quite, which is why I tend not to sing whilst playing :-)

  18. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    I felt from the first post that the OP was looking for a basic map of the board to get all the stops in any key or position.
    His first question was:

    'do the 7 modes of the major scale have movable patterns'

    which rather implies he already knows about modes etc. Anyway, the natural answer to that is yes, like any scale.

    But, hey, page 4 now, it would be a miracle if the thread was still answering the original question!

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Quite, which is why I tend not to sing whilst playing :-)
    It's a mixed blessing, I guess. But, some have done it very well. There's a local bassist who sings every note when he solos, and really well. But, he refuses to be mic'ed. I recently heard a very good guitarist sing in harmony with his solos -- he was a little ragged with it, but you could detect the potential for something really great.

  20. #169

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    11 years later

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But, hey, page 4 now, it would be a miracle if the thread was still answering the original question!
    Yeah, hey that was what I was alluding to.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people are getting discouraged over the deep end discussions that
    can sometimes get injected into a "Getting Started" thread.

    If you were a student of mine I'd say.... descend in a cycle of 6th's from Cmaj7 xx10121212 to Fmaj7 1 3 2 2 xx here's your money back and
    come back when you can do that.

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    It's a mixed blessing, I guess. But, some have done it very well. There's a local bassist who sings every note when he solos, and really well. But, he refuses to be mic'ed. I recently heard a very good guitarist sing in harmony with his solos -- he was a little ragged with it, but you could detect the potential for something really great.
    I said Glenn Gould to Christian. I'll let you read up on him (if you don't know already).

    'Gould was widely known for his unusual habits. He often hummed or sang while he played, and his audio engineers were not always successful in excluding his voice from recordings.

    Gould claimed that his singing was unconscious and increased in proportion to his inability to produce his intended interpretation from a given piano. It is likely that this habit originated in his having been taught by his mother to "sing everything that he played", as his biographer Kevin Bazzana puts it. This became "an unbreakable (and notorious) habit".

    Some of Gould's recordings were severely criticised because of this background "vocalising". For example, a reviewer of his 1981 re-recording of the Goldberg Variations opined that many listeners would "find the groans and croons intolerable".'


    Glenn Gould - Wikipedia
    Last edited by ragman1; 10-12-2019 at 07:10 PM.

  23. #172

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  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Yeah, hey that was what I was alluding to.

    I get the distinct feeling that some people are getting discouraged over the deep end discussions that
    can sometimes get injected into a "Getting Started" thread.

    If you were a student of mine I'd say.... descend in a cycle of 6th's from Cmaj7 xx10121212 to Fmaj7 1 3 2 2 xx here's your money back and
    come back when you can do that.
    The op was in 2008.