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I learned by writing it all down on a sheet of music paper. I treated each stave as a string, drew vertical lines to mark the frets, and then filled in the natural notes. Then I practiced with the sheet in front of me. Then I threw it away and drew another. And again and again.
It is nearly eleven years since this thread was started. The OP is probably a virtuoso now.
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09-28-2019 10:38 PM
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What I find effective is to divide up the fretboard into three areas: frets 0-4, 5-8, 9-12, and to learn the natural notes on all six strings in each area. It takes time, even though there aren't that many notes to learn after all. This division makes sense because each area is the size of a playing position, starting with the open position.
As you progress and to reinforce the learning, as a side exercise, it's good to mix it up and so I agree with suggestions like darrenj's to focus on certain areas you are not familiar with, like shifting those areas by 1 or 2 frets to the left or to the right (like frets 4-7 instead of 5-8). That also falls in between the fretboard inlays which can be disorienting and tell you if you have truly memorised the notes. Also, as Gabor says, knowing the notes on the fretboard is to be able to go direct to a note without "calculating". Octaves and the likes are good backups but you shouldn't rely on them.
If I may toot my own horn, I released a book some time ago about learning the notes on the fretboard, called "Guitar Note Finder". It does focus on just that but also maps the notes to the staff, in case, like Joe Dalton and Jack E Blue, you want to kill some birds!
Originally Posted by Litterick
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Originally Posted by pinbridge
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Here's the culprit.
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First off, you have to account for enharmonic pitches, because they have at least two names, like C# and Db. Which letter names and which accidentals to use will depend on the key signature (whether the accidentals in the key are sharps or flats). What this means to learning the notes is that you may begin learning the notes without accidentals... so the notes of the key of C major / A minor - that is only 7 of the 12 pitches, but they are all "sure things", only taking their one note name. With those as the basis framework, the five remaining pitches (the ones that may be either sharp or flat) are up to the key, but easier to manage with respect to their natural namesake.
Then, playing scales and chords in different keys, make sure you name the notes correctly with respect to the key... this is much easier and clearer if you play songs so you have a definite key from which to interpret the note names.
If you are using a position system of fingering, take special notice of the placement of the scale tonics and chord roots. The mechanics of the guitar is such that you can map the positions (however many positions a system offers) and fingerings to the tonics/roots - as octaves, and recognize the configuration of the octaves, like this:
- there is a position/fingering where the tonic/root/octave notes all occur on the sixth, third, and first strings - for example if you play a first position E chord and first position E major scale... those E notes are on strings 6, 4, and 1. Call that "641".
- playing, still E chord and scale, further up the neck, the next one is "42", the E notes are now on the fourth string (fret 2) and the second string (fret 5). "42" is just the strings only.
- still with E, the next up is "52"... fifth string 7th fret, second string 5th fret... get it?
- last one is "631"... sixth string 12 fret, third string 9th fret, first string 12th fret
If you keep going it repeats.
I could have begun with Gb major or whatever, it works for the whole finger board, provides unique identification of the tonics/roots/octaves with respect to the various fingerings for each position, works in all keys, and serves as an organizational view until your fingers themselves learn how to recognize these fingering/position relationships.
The clarity is this scheme does not need input knowledge of the key, note names, or the notes subject to accidentals - all it does is keep you instantly aware of each position's tonic/root/octaves with respect to a particular fingering; or with respect to a fingering, where the tonic/root/octaves are placed within the position fingering; or with respect to a fingering, which position supports the tonic/root/octaves of that fingering. It relates position, fingering, and tonic/root/octave placements mechanically and instantly, so it can relieve some of the complexity choosing positions and fingerings while learning note names reading music or charts.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
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The best way IMO is "the second finger reference", the way that Reg and Kurt Rosenwinkle talk about learning the fretboard. From another thread:
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Hey, Matt, did you make a chart for triad fingerings (to use w PFJ ex)?
I've resolved something about my picking and am wanting to solidify my approach to the PFJ exercises. I learned CAGED stuff, then 3NPS, and it's not like I can only know one way to do things, but with exercises---which are not part of tunes or associated with a key or even a style---I want a default I don't have to think about. ;o) When I'm running through 12 keys I feel I'm using too many different fingerings and making some awkward shifts....
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
EDIT.... This was the last one I think:
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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I'd recommend learning the fretboard and learning to read, all as one project.
There are graded materials available. Start in the first position in the guitar's middle octave. Also, transpose everything up an octave.
I did it, many years ago, by starting with a kid's beginner book by Belwin, then Mel Bay book 2, and then Colin and Bower's Complete Rhythms. I still think Complete Rhythms is a terrific way to learn to read.
It's a few months of work at the end of which you know the fretboard and you can read conventional notation.
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Matt your getting very comfortable with playing and not staring at your fretboard... very cool. That skill, being able to play without staring at fretboard is developed pretty quickly when you use a fretboard system that is designed on the guitar. It seems like you've elevated your technical skills, I mean really improved your skills... really fast, like compared to a year ago etc... I'm impressed, I guess I need to start posting more...
I also agree with rp... sight reading is also about the fretboard being together. But I would also push...working on fingerings, and getting the fretboard together by it's self. Many sight reading studies have micro fingering patterns. When sight reading, work on playing in a few octaves and different positions. The result of good fingerings and fretboard organization is being able to move around easily.
Fretboard organization makes sight reading much easier, fretboard and fingerings are tools for sight reading as compared to sight reading being a tool for fingerings etc... But that is one of those egg and chicken things for some. Sight reading is about being aware of and recognizing melodic, harmonic and rhythmic patterns. (and knowing where to play them on the guitar).
When you get down to what it take to get your musicianship skills together... it takes an organized schedule which covers everything and is organized in two parts, 1)technical skills, 2)performance skills. And you adjust the details as needed...
Yea... 2008 it would be interesting to see how inf tank has improved.
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Originally Posted by Reg
My thought is that learning to read, as you learn the fingerboard, is a very good way to proceed. The reading makes the fingerboard easier to learn, I think, and the note-name knowledge will help with every aspect of playing.
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The culprit Locrain
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Yea... anyway can get there.... but what is "there". Personally, there is when the fretboard just becomes one big 12 fret repeating pattern. Again personally, and these are my expectation from when I was a kid, I could perform at any tempo and still be looking at the other musicians and audience while doing so. Again personal thing, while sight reading or performing new music live.
I generally never develop fingering to just be able to play something... but I don't believe there is anything wrong with that approach, again personal thing.
Anyway... again in the end, the fretboard just becomes one big fingering. All the different approaches to getting it together, are just the road to get "there". I started classically and then moved on to 7 positions based on music and the guitar. I went to Berklee as a kid and Bill cleaned up my sight reading, I could already play, I had chops. I never think about positions, except if i choose to, which is a cool mechanical skill, helps with transposing and developing harmonic improv. Different fingerings have different natural articulations... helps with different styles etc...
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Originally Posted by Reg
Did you use any kind of systematic limitation exercises , like working one position for certain amount of time etc or limiting things to certain key signatures for periods of time etc.? Where do you tell people to start ? How do you advise on filling in the in between cracks at the end of the process? And everything else in between?
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the illogical nature of the fretboard does make it a "solve the puzzle" task to see it as "one" thing.
many methods have been presented to learn it..some say its easy if you do "this or that" others say it comes to you bit at a time
for me it was determination and go over and over until it became part of my playing and less thinking..
scales and chords/inversions in all positions and keys..I would also write out the chord shapes on grids and name the notes of the chord and their fret placement
after several years of scale/chord/interval studies and drills..I began to actually see entire scales harmonized in many keys and chord names changing as voices moved in ascending and descending directions..and again with time I began to "hear" the movement..
now there are those that "hear it" before they see it and just play..and not be concerned with theory of note.chord names..
for many of us though..there is the fear of doing it "wrong" and we may freeze because we are not sure if that is really the C note we want..the 5th fret or the 10th??
I went through the Howard Roberts Sight Reading manual years ago and it helped me alot ..I strongly suggest both reading and writing musical exercises to people I teach..it reinforces another way to see/hear the music and supports seeing the fretboard as one thing rather than "boxes" or sections
these days I still study melodic patterns and use step wise and chromatic movements and apply them to my improv lines..now I find that tempo does not dictate how fast I have to play or which scales to play over chords..the melody is my guide and how to play it without playing it
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Yea... wolflens approach is great.
You can't sightread what you can't play. Personally... two parts to learning, technical skills BS and the the performance BS
The technical part should be obvious.... there are a few ways to become aware of what there is and the fingerings. What ever you choose, you just need to finish the process, develop you basic reference. What is your default fretboard reference. What you play naturally with out having to think about it. This is all very mechanical...
The performance thing also take practice. I'm not a start slow and build tempo approach player. When you get your sight reading together.... your seeing the big picture, your not going note to note, your going section to section, phrase to phrase... depending on what your sight reading. So practice sight reading at tempo... get the target or most important notes right to start with while staying in time. With time, you'll become comfortable with tempo and you'll start filling in the notes you miss.
The point is your teaching yourself to sight read, which also means... at tempo. Playing at tempo and missing a few notes... is much better than playing all the notes right and not in tempo. I learned this as a kid playing gigs.... You don't get better at sight reading trying to memorize what your playing. Reading music you've memorized is not sight reading... If you've put in the time to pre work out the music... play it from memory. When you use the music as a guide when playing, when you've already put in the time to memorize it.... your just training yourself to forget etc...
Sorry for getting away from fretboard points...
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Originally Posted by Reg
Maybe pro pit musicians avoid memorization in order to maintain exclusive reliance on extraordinary sight reading skills for performance quality?
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Originally Posted by pauln
years ago a player I knew was doing his own compositions at a major hotel in los angeles and the union stopped him from doing so..he had to play from a songbook of approved tunes that were
approved during contract talks with the hotel...go figure..
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Buddy's band sometimes used guitar only -- no piano.
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Originally Posted by inf.tank
If you don't know all the notes up and down, you soon will, or you'll get fired.
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Having posted about this recently and done some thinking about it, I'm focusing on triads (see the recent Rick Beato video about "Fretboard hacks" and the two Joe Viola saxophone books (Vol 1+2). I think those might be the keys to the kingdom. I wish I'd prioritized that stuff earlier. Seems really elemental and basic, and I can't do it now, and I think if I had a lot more of this under control, playing would be easier.
Mostly my frustration with improvising comes from not knowing where the notes are, so....duh.
The Viola scales book has some cool polytonal (I think basically just rapidly modulating) scale stuff that looks perfect (just got the book today so we'll see....)
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I became real comfortable with knowing the fret board by learning arpeggios on single strings and going through all the keys. Start with the Maj 7 in C. Then cycle through at a pace that allows you to name the chord tones as you play them. C-E-G-B, F-A-C-E, etc. It's important to go slow enough to learn the notes and not just turn them into patterns. Start with the first available chord tone on each string ie, C Maj7 on the E string would be, E-G-B-C-E-G-B-C. Then the B string B-C-E-G-etc. After a while, when you go to position playing, you'll start visualizing the notes by name.
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