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  1. #51

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    Knowing the fretboard is something I really need to improve upon. Recently came upon these two videos that I think are pretty helpful:



    And learning the chords of a scale (or the scale if you like) a little differently:


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    A couple of things:

    First, I'd be careful to make a distinction in advice you find, based on whether you're getting it from real jazz players who have solved these problems in the context of the complexity of THIS music. It's different from straightahead rock 'n' roll or something. The videos linked above just aren't that. They're fine as exercises maybe. A component part, but they aren't really a SYSTEM for learning to visualize fretboard in an organized way.

    The second thing is that they aren't really kinesthetically linked to hand position at all. Learning where the notes are, as if you're going to just look down at the fretboard and slide your first finger from note note with plenty of time is a different way of understanding compared to knowing where your hand is in the position of the moment, relative to notes you would play or wish to play , ....whether they're found in the current position or in another.

    There's nothing wrong with understanding where all the notes are, separated from position etc., ....like you're gonna write them down on a piece of paper without a guitar even, .....but it's not the ONLY skill. Life is short. I would strongly recommend that you give a lot of thought to pursuing something which accomplishes BOTH at the same time.

    Check out reg' s thread "live at the speed of jazz". It's linked in this other post with various other reg material. He started this a while after I joined the forum. I was just a chord melody player and more casual observer. I basically assumed that this was mainly for series monster players or something and beyond me. I wasted way too much time before actually taking this up. It simply saves TOO much time in the long run -per hour spent- to be disregarded.
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Yeah.
    I've attached a couple of pdf's which are more complete. Check out these threads and reg's youtube channel as well. I mostly use reg's fingerings for everything right now, but I'm still learning. He's not dogmatic about that stuff. They're a "starting reference". Once you know one way, you can play things however, but most of us don't learn one way well.

    A lot of people push back on the idea of some of these stretches, as if they aren't practical or something. I certainly did and wasted several years not getting started on this stuff as a result.

    Make sure you pay attention to his technique comments here:

    Incidentally I have pretty small hands. You just have to be safe and do things the right way.

    This thread has become a repository for all things reg:
    Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

    This one is pretty important as well:
    Techniques for Picking and Fingerings... basics and on to the speed of Jazz

    I've also attached some random personal notes on Reg stuff...
    It's also uncanny how Kurt Rosenwinkel describes this process in almost exactly the same way. I really can't see any difference in the verbiage he uses:

    [Ouch. The old Rosenwinkel video of him demonstrating and talking about this concept has been pulled from YouTube apparently. It's a shame. Great video.]

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    A couple of things:

    First, I'd be careful to make a distinction in advice you find, based on whether you're getting it from real jazz players ....
    I'm so busted

    Please don't anyone think I'm trying to pass myself off as a real a real jazz player! Just someone who struggles to find their way around the fretboard and thought these might be a useful aid.

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by michael-m View Post
    I'm so busted

    Please don't anyone think I'm trying to pass myself off as a real a real jazz player!
    Ha. No. Me neither, but I wasn't talking about YOU. I was talking with the guys who made those videos.

    They're cool you tubers, and I don't have a problem with what they're doing. I just think this question has a different context if you're "learning the fretboard" to play jazz.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Ha. No. Me neither, but I wasn't talking about YOU. I was talking with the guys who made those videos.

    They're cool you tubers, and I don't have a problem with what they're doing. I just think this question has a different context if you're "learning the fretboard" to play jazz.
    I had wondered about that. I think playing triads on the sets of three strings is something Van Eps teaches, no? It's great to know those fingerings on the top three strings for soloing and comping. Once you know your triads well, it's much easier to alter chords, add extensions---you know what the surrounding notes are. And being able to play a series of triads along the neck is useful as heck. (When you play them using the same three strings you don't get the timbre changes you find when playing them all in one position and switching string sets; also, the picking is the same so it's easier to execute at tempo.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I had wondered about that. I think playing triads on the sets of three strings is something Van Eps teaches, no? It's great to know those fingerings on the top three strings for soloing and comping. Once you know your triads well, it's much easier to alter chords, add extensions---you know what the surrounding notes are. And being able to play a series of triads along the neck is useful as heck. (When you play them using the same three strings you don't get the timbre changes you find when playing them all in one position and switching string sets; also, the picking is the same so it's easier to execute at tempo.)
    Triads are cool, and I've spent some time with them. But I don't necessarily think of them as an entire organizational system.

    Again, if there's a Van Epps video of something with triads or Joe Pass outlining a system based around caged shapes or whatever, I think you'd have to regard that. Just another degree of separation when you're going to a non-jazz player for the approach to these things.

    There are enough differences in approaches even among jazz players . But I would kind of wonder why students of jazz would be looking at what just general guitar guys or bluegrass players do for fretboard organization?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    There are enough differences in approaches even among jazz players . But I would kind of wonder why students of jazz would be looking at what just general guitar guys or bluegrass players do for fretboard organization?
    Well for starters, a lot of guitar players start out playing something besides jazz, such as country or blues or rock.

    Also, I'm not sure the early guitar greats thought of jazz guitar as a special kind of guitar. (I don't mean the instrument, I mean the technique.)

    Here's a video by our own Christian Miller about Van Eps' first book (from 1938), a short work that stresses triads in chord melody usage. Certainly Van Eps is still regarded as a great teacher.

    I think a lot of early guitar players played out of chord shapes rather than organizing the fretboard in relation to scales. Certainly Charlie Christian was a shape guy. Herb Ellis too. Carol Kaye discourages students from playing out of (or thinking in terms of) positions. And Joe Pass urges students to "think chordally."

    I think Reg is right when he says there are a lot of ways to do it and they all can work, you just have to pick one and learn it.

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  9. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Well for starters, a lot of guitar players start out playing something besides jazz, such as country or blues or rock.

    Also, I'm not sure the early guitar greats thought of jazz guitar as a special kind of guitar. (I don't mean the instrument, I mean the technique.)

    Here's a video by our own Christian Miller about Van Eps' first book (from 1938), a short work that stresses triads in chord melody usage. Certainly Van Eps is still regarded as a great teacher.

    I think a lot of early guitar players played out of chord shapes rather than organizing the fretboard in relation to scales. Certainly Charlie Christian was a shape guy. Herb Ellis too. Carol Kaye discourages students from playing out of (or thinking in terms of) positions. And Joe Pass urges students to "think chordally."

    I think Reg is right when he says there are a lot of ways to do it and they all can work, you just have to pick one and learn it.

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of that, but everyone you're mentioning is a jazzer. That's kind of my point. a little different than "Youtube dude".

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of that, but everyone you're mentioning is a jazzer. That's kind of my point. a little different than "Youtube dude".
    I think the fretboard is the same whatever genre of music one plays on the guitar.
    There's only one cycle and chords are built (to begin with) in thirds.
    If you know triads along the neck, you're a long way toward knowing the fretboard.

    One way to look at this is through the Fred Sokolow material. He plays in several styles and started the "fretboard roadmap" series years ago. It's simple: F-D-A triad shapes along the neck. He claims this is what most pro guitarists are doing. (As a foundation; "the road goes on forever" and one can always refine and expand one's knowledge.) Later he made books for specific genre, such as folk, country, and rock. Also one for jazz.

    That 'playing out of chords' approach has a long history in jazz as well as blues, rock, and country.

    Hank Garland is interesting here as he was a great country player, did a lot of session work with Elvis playing rock, and made a killer jazz album, "Jazz Winds From A New Direction."

    Here he is doing his own "Sugarfoot Rag", a country "classic", doing a rock number with Elvis, and then "Move" from his jazz album. I don't think he had to re-learn the fretboard to play jazz after starting out as a country guitarist.





    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 11-22-2019 at 07:35 AM.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  11. #60

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    I just started working on triads as a step back from 7ths chords a couple of weeks ago and can tell my playing has improved significantly in that period. I was always a bit mystified by the Goodrich book but now notice that most of what I'd like to be working on is in the first 25 or so pages.

    Also the recent Rick Beato video on fretboard mapping with triads is great.

  12. #61

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    I would like to hear Rob McKillop on this subject. He made many videos about van Eps material and has a keen interest in older method books for several stringed instruments.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  13. #62

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    I'm surprised no one mentioned reading music. That is the clearest way to learn the note names on the fretboard. More important than note names, though, is learning to instantly identify each degree of what you are playing.

  14. #63

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    If anyone is interested, I just made this today inspired by the Goodrich book.

    All maj min dim and aug triads, go down the row, pick a string set or neck area and voicelead through them. I just did one row. Slow going but you can't bs your way through it. I was slow spelling out some of the dim and aug triads.

    I suppose if you could do this at a metronomic clip, that would really be something useful.


    Triad Scrambler - Sheet1.pdf

  15. #64

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    LOL... I did say that any way will work.... as long as you finish the process..... But I also said it very obvious which ways work better and get to end faster.

    OK so most don't use piano or tenor technique to play jazz or any type of music on the guitar. They use guitar technique... which is based on the physical structure of the guitar. ( I came from other instruments and eventually guitar.)

    There is a difference between, what you play and how the instrument works. In the end... when you get to where the guitar fretboard is just the instrument, somewhat instinctive..... you'll be able to use different organization of the fretboard to help facilitate different sounds, different styles etc... With enough practice anything can work, at least to some level. But there are big differences between the different approaches. What they are based on and what they naturally cover.

    Someone mentioned sight reading.... Generally sight reading is part of learning how to play an instrument... another of those non guitar things. I'm a pro, I sight read well, all pros do, it's part of having musicianship. Maybe like being an painter and only using a few colors, not bad, but more difficult.

    Generally most guitarist start with open position caged system or some version on, depending on what BS teacher or friend you learn from. The concept of caged is being able to visualize the 5 chords and their fretboard shapes and be able to move them around the neck... Basically a moving picture and sound and moving roots. Caged by design is limited, it's designed for maj/min chords and scale patterns with embellishments. Triads. All good, and when you memorize enough embellishments and basically stare at your guitar neck all the time... it works and sounds great. There are limitations, anything out of that Box needs to be worked out.... and maybe having everything based on major as the starting reference... might be a problem.

    But it has been done and works obviously. But why not just use a fingering system that is based on Music... the design of the entire guitar... 12 frets with repeating complete patterns and your "hands"... At least that was my thought as a kid... back in the mid and late 60's I was playing blues, R&B and rock gigs in SF area... I was playing some jazz gigs... but was not even close to being a jazz player. I was heading in the 3 note per string direction...
    Anyway.... even if your using caged, 3 notes per string, triads, pentatonics, whatever. You'll still be able to perform using those techniques, hell they'll get better, much better. They all fit within position playing.

    Fretboard position organization is just the organization of realizing music on the guitar, based on.... " the instrument, music organization and how our hands work. And if you want to play jazz... at least the fingering organization works with the rest of harmonic organization.... Jazz Harmony. You don't need to adjust the fingering or go through a few mental processes to be able to play chords , arpeggios and scales.

    There use to be a guitarist from Europe... Jens ? I think he put together a pretty organized approach for the 3 note per string approach, which is still position playing.... with a few more stretches and 1/2 step position movements. Or Henry, another great player who used 3 notes per string....

    Caged works... but you better be one of those freaks with ungodly talent.

    Some basic facts... CST is not Music theory, it's just organization of Jazz common practice harmonic choices of what possible functions chords can have in Jazz tunes or tunes being performed in a jazz style. Suggestions of possible complete note collections, (scales) for chords in Chord progression. You can never play a scale and still be using CST for harmonic organization.

    (CST has nothing to do with the guitar... )

    The biggest difference with CST, is just the result of using 7 notes chords, Diatonic 7th chords from all the scales and expanding Borrowing to Modal Interchange... Simple version.... the addition of Dorian and Melodic Minor as part of functional movement organization... not just being embellishments.

    All the BS about young or old players who shred using scales etc... has nothing to do with CST, excepts some of the basics without understandings.

    Getting your fretboard and fingerings together... has nothing to do with playing 7th chords or triads, 3 notes per string, 4 notes per string etc.... All those, "What you choose to play things"... are just that.

    Generally players have periods where they improve what they're playing, or at least in the moment, believe they're getting better because it's either new or sounding like what someone else sounds like.... it's not the fingerings, it's your being able to play something. Fingerings can be a door, like the blind squirrel finding an acorn. But generally not the best, and not the fastest approach for learning.

    Using mechanical organization for learning is backwards. Part of the difference of you playing the guitar or the guitar playing you.
    Using mechanical organization for creating different concepts of musical knowledge requires having the understanding first.

    While I did say anything works... that part about definnging what "works" means you finish the process. There is a big picture.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by sully75 View Post
    If anyone is interested, I just made this today inspired by the Goodrich book.

    All maj min dim and aug triads, go down the row, pick a string set or neck area and voicelead through them. I just did one row. Slow going but you can't bs your way through it. I was slow spelling out some of the dim and aug triads.

    I suppose if you could do this at a metronomic clip, that would really be something useful.


    Triad Scrambler - Sheet1.pdf
    Cool sully, great exercise. Yea I tried it.. all in one position with stretches two octaves down and up or up and down, took a second, then became easy. tried vertical rows. same.Then used 7th chords, sounded better, more fun.. sounded like chords, right, had to make choices, now I'm implying harmony. yea great brain tool. Fingering wise... pretty easy once I decided on notes.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Cool sully, great exercise. Yea I tried it.. all in one position with stretches two octaves down and up or up and down, took a second, then became easy. tried vertical rows. same.Then used 7th chords, sounded better, more fun.. sounded like chords, right, had to make choices, now I'm implying harmony. yea great brain tool. Fingering wise... pretty easy once I decided on notes.
    Glad you liked it! I made another, more challenging one. Sus chords and altered extensions.

    Altered Triad Scrambler - Sheet1.pdf

  18. #67

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    For me a lot of what I'm realizing lately is figuring out what is the lowest level thing I CAN'T do and then figure that out.

    I was trying to work on a lot of inversions of 7th chords, but realized I did not know all the triads on the guitar well at all, particularly on the GBE strings. So everything I was doing with 7th chords was really difficult and slow going. I backed up and am now trying to really master triads in all inversions (and also playing the 3-5-7 triads and higher extensions on 7th chords). It's much more manageable and my progress has been pretty notable lately.

    In my transcriptions too I was trying to do really hard stuff. I've backed off and I'm focusing on basic stuff. Maybe just tons of Lester Young. Not that it's easy but it forces me to get into basic, perfect jazz solos.

  19. #68

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    Yea, having an organized approach which starts with a basic Reference is generally how knowledgeable or informed methods start... or at least should. Pretty difficult to count to 10 when you only know the odd numbers. I know just count by even numbers. But that's one of the points... I would be missing part of what's implied.

    Yea... I already have the fretboard together, so playing anything technically is never really a problem, like your I generally trash things when I have a wrong mental understanding or don't get what's implied. Most of the time I understand too much LOL. But luckly I've always been a pretty good ear and feel player. So I can fake it.

    So the sus and alterd triad scrambler...
    Are you aware of what your notation is implying? The b5 and #11 etc... I mean the term triad implies 3 notes stacked in thirds, right. So I get you can call a P4th and raised or sharp Ma 3rd, or are you just expanding triad to being any 3 note voicing. I'm guessing expanding to voicing reference.

    So thanks to the Key, yea more thinking involved... but after getting the 12 voicing, which took more time than playing, LOL fun, thanks
    Ever play that Hank Mobley tune..."The Break Through", basically just a 12 bar blues but uses your Q triad as structure for head.
    Break Through.pdf
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea, having an organized approach which starts with a basic Reference is generally how knowledgeable or informed methods start... or at least should. Pretty difficult to count to 10 when you only know the odd numbers. I know just count by even numbers. But that's one of the points... I would be missing part of what's implied.

    Yea... I already have the fretboard together, so playing anything technically is never really a problem, like your I generally trash things when I have a wrong mental understanding or don't get what's implied. Most of the time I understand too much LOL. But luckly I've always been a pretty good ear and feel player. So I can fake it.

    So the sus and alterd triad scrambler...
    Are you aware of what your notation is implying? The b5 and #11 etc... I mean the term triad implies 3 notes stacked in thirds, right. So I get you can call a P4th and raised or sharp Ma 3rd, or are you just expanding triad to being any 3 note voicing. I'm guessing expanding to voicing reference.

    So thanks to the Key, yea more thinking involved... but after getting the 12 voicing, which took more time than playing, LOL fun, thanks
    Ever play that Hank Mobley tune..."The Break Through", basically just a 12 bar blues but uses your Q triad as structure for head.
    Break Through.pdf
    Yeah just thinking of useful three note groupings.

    If you take 7 9 11 13 on d7b9b13 you get
    c eb g# bb
    so C-7#5 but also c-#5 triad and eb sus 4 triad

    So just being able to see these shapes, and being able to visualize sort of whatever pattern I want.

    I was inspired by this video which has really turned my approach around.


  21. #70

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    PS I'm also find the Beato book helpful for this stuff. There's little to no instruction in the book but it is full of information and the triadic stuff is pretty good in it. And then just making my own exercises for stuff I want to be able to do. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

  22. #71

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    I think the best way to learn the fretboard is to memorize this. ;o) For good or ill, it's how I learned the names of all the notes. (This chart is simplified, using only natural notes. I don't have the diagram I learned from many years ago. You get the idea.) It never seemed like a hard thing. It was like learning the typewriter keyboard. (A little more complicated but it still didn't take long.)

    Recommended way to learn the fretboard.-img_1382-jpg

    A lot lies beyond this, of course. Namely, technique! But technique is a separate thing. (Like writing a story is a separate thing from learning where the letters are on a typewriter.) The invariant thing is the grid. And the grid is not hard to learn.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  23. #72

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    As Reg points out, how well sound and musical data is understood and organized
    in our thinking and hearing will greatly impact our trajectory for learning the fretboard.

    Consider the difference between locating individual pitches versus seeing groups of notes in relationship to each other as part of some larger concept or system.

  24. #73

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    I confess that I don't understand what sort of organization people are looking for.

    I think a great way to learn the fretboard is to learn to read standard notation in all positions.

    At that point you know where the notes are.

    A far as seeing relationships, learn the notes in the triads, arps and scales you want to use and you'll see where they are.

    I don't really understand what people are looking for beyond that, unless it's to avoid dealing with note-names. Then, I guess, it becomes a matter of a lot of geometry. Is that what people are referring to?

  25. #74

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    Recommended way to learn the fretboard.-locrian-png
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I confess that I don't understand what sort of organization people are looking for.

    I think a great way to learn the fretboard is to learn to read standard notation in all positions.

    At that point you know where the notes are.

    A far as seeing relationships, learn the notes in the triads, arps and scales you want to use and you'll see where they are.

    I don't really understand what people are looking for beyond that, unless it's to avoid dealing with note-names. Then, I guess, it becomes a matter of a lot of geometry. Is that what people are referring to?
    Of course you're probably right, in that once you learn to read in all positions another fretboard. I think some players like Reg would say that it's helpful to have a starting point FROM WHICH to learn to read, like knowing the basics of where diatonic notes are in given positions etc.

    Reg has always talked about those basic diatonic scale positions as being the "starting reference" and that they can become the physical organization from which you learn to read, even chromatically etc. There's a degree of separation on the guitar from the kind of kinesthetic reference that you have on the Sax or piano. Guitar is more like a piano keyboard with black notes between EVERY white note etc.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Of course you're probably right, in that once you learn to read in all positions another fretboard. I think some players like Reg would say that it's helpful to have a starting point FROM WHICH to learn to read, like knowing the basics of where diatonic notes are in given positions etc.

    Reg has always talked about those basic diatonic scale positions as being the "starting reference" and that they can become the physical organization from which you learn to read, even chromatically etc. There's a degree of separation on the guitar from the kind of kinesthetic reference that you have on the Sax or piano. Guitar is more like a piano keyboard with black notes between EVERY white note etc.
    '

    Maybe it helped that I did it at age 14, but, as I recall, it only took a few months months to get thru Mel Bay 2 and onto Complete Rhythms (Colin and Bower), the latter read as written and also an octave up. I didn't need any prior knowledge of the fingerboard to do that. It was easy enough to count frets to figure out what the notes were -- and then it was just a matter of some repetition. As I recall, I was reading clarinet books all over the neck in less than a year from first touching a guitar. I don't think I was especially quick at it, but I did practice 2 hours per day.

    That became the foundation. If I needed to learn a scale or arp, I'd figure out the notes and find them. I did practice some fingerings over the years. If I had it to do all over again I would not have spent as much time playing scales in order C D E etc. I'd have practiced them on tunes, initially focusing on using the notes of the scale (or arp) to create melody. I do find having muscle memory for arps to be helpful. When I have to play something practiced because the tempo is high, the arps often sound better than the scales. But, it depends on a lot of other factors.

    I did it this way, not some other way, so I'm in no position to compare approaches based on personal experience. But, it makes sense to me and it is the way I'd teach it, if I was still teaching. You learn the fingerboard and you learn to read, all at the same time. I don't see why it's any more trouble than an alternative approach.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-25-2019 at 03:20 AM.

  28. #77

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    Learning the fingerboard is one thing. And once you've learned it, even if another way to learn it is better, you can't go back to not-knowing it and then learn it anew.

    I learned the fretboard in a slapdash way, starting with just knowing the notes on the low E and A strings as roots of power chords. Gradually I learned the other notes. I could have learned it a lot quicker if that had been a priority. It wasn't. (Probably should have been but it wasn't.) But I learned it. And once it's learned, you know it.

    Now, that learning may be refined, as with learning chord inversions on different string sets or various scale-fingering systems (3nps, CAGED, whatever) but if you already know the fretboard, learning those things is not learning the fretboard, it's learning fingerings. Fingerings are huge, but they are a separate matter.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  29. #78

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    I was told to learn the fretboard with the circle of fourths

  30. #79

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    Yea... anyway works... if that's right, why do some players get better. And so much quicker.

    So reading music is the same with any instrument or no instrument. the notes don't change, what instrument you realize the notes on the pages on...or how you hear the notes changes. With the guitar, it generally works better when you have an organized fingering system that reflects how the guitar is constructed. I know, it's pretty basic, simple... but many players use fingerings that only use parts of the fretboard.

    So the organization is... how you finger that Guitar Fretboard Vis. Chart as the labeled notes change, all 12 frets. The chart was in key of "C"... so now how does it look when you change the key to Db, now Db Lydian, now Db Mixolydian b5.

    And the organization is how the fingerings of those key changes works... most use caged and the fingerings are? Embellished versions of those caged open position chords with capo.

    For a lot of music you don't need much more. But the practice of learning a little at a time and then trying to create an organization after the fact creates conflicts, every time something new comes along... you need to embellish what you have memorized, which requires reorganization and lots of practice, a lot of starring at the neck and frustration...... not to mention, tempo becomes a problem.

    Analogy... when you learn new tunes do you start at beginning and just keep adding notes until end of tune. Take just the melody...do you start at beginning and keep adding notes, bars etc... until you memorize the tune. If you do... you might want to reorganize how you learn tunes. It's better to start with big picture and connect the dots. By that I mean start with the Form of the tune, how the tune is organized within space... time. OK... same for different thread. It's the same approach, learning music within space, and how the space is organized is much faster and you'll get the big picture quicker and have a better understanding of what the tune is musically. Rhythm is not 1+1+1+1 etc..... it's the organization of patterns within periods of time and how they are organized to each other.

    Fingerings are the organization of all the notes on the fretboard and how they are related to each other. Some approaches work better than others. (obviously names and sound of the notes also) Generally all that becomes instinctive... you don't physically or mentally label and hear each note as you play. You see and hear the bigger pictures... larger groups of notes. Maybe think of chord changes... can you hear chords? or do you go through process of one note at a time.

    Start playing solos with voicings below.... chord solos, but starting from the Top down. Don't worry about the roots. Good exercise for getting fingerings together.... after you have them together.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea... anyway works... if that's right, why do some players get better. And so much quicker.


    Fingerings are the organization of all the notes on the fretboard and how they are related to each other. Some approaches work better than others. (obviously names and sound of the notes also) Generally all that becomes instinctive... you don't physically or mentally label and hear each note as you play. You see and hear the bigger pictures... larger groups of notes. Maybe think of chord changes... can you hear chords? or do you go through process of one note at a time.
    Couple things here. I think you're treating as one thing something that I treat as at least two.
    I think learning the notes on the fretboard is one thing. It's pretty easy. At least straightforward. They are what they are. (And they vary a bit becuase what is, say, Gb in one key is F# in another.) But you just have to learn them, like the keys on a typewriter. It is THIS PART OF IT that I say, "it makes no difference how you learn where the notes are, and once you know them, you know them. You can't go back and re-learn them some other way, even if you come to think that other way is more efficient." (I learned the fretboard in a very inefficient way. I wouldn't recommend it to a friend. But I learned it. The FASTEST way I've seen to learn it is Carol Kaye's way but that's another story.)

    FINGERING is something else. I agree that's huge. Much more involved than just learning the notes. (But one needs to know the notes...) But it's a separate thing. One can change one's fingering (as, for example, someone who was taught the "CAGED" approach and later switches to a 7-fingering system, or someone who was taught a scale system and switches to a triad-based approach such as Garrison Fewell taught---very diffferent fingering, but of course, the G is still G, Bb is still Bb, D is still D in a Gm triad.)

    Your fingering approach is great. I have no quarrel with it.

    I prefer thinking in terms of chords rather than scales. I know the 5 fingerings Jimmy Bruno teaches and the 7 fingerings you recommend. Again, I'm not saying anything is wrong with them. I'm not AGAINST them. I learned them, but they're not my "default".

    As for getting better, well, not everyone who uses 7 scale fingerings as a default turns out great either. Greatness is exceptional, and few achieve it.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  32. #81

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    I learned the notes by reading.

    I learned Chuck Wayne's system for fingering/picking and, later, Warren Nunes' system. I have spent more time than I should have, in retrospect, practicing that material in a rather mindless way. Much later, I focused more on arps (although so did Chuck) and constructed some fingerings of my own to fill in gaps.

    But, when I'm improvising, none of this is particularly helpful for the goal I'm trying to achieve. That goal is to be able to sing a line in my mind and play it instantly. When I can do that, I'm never thinking about fingering. Of course, I'm not always able to achieve that goal, or even approach it. So, for example, at high tempo in unfamiliar harmony, I'll use the arp fingerings as a kind of safety net. I rarely think about scale fingerings, instead I just find the notes in the scale I want by sound. I rarely play, in a solo, a prepared scale fingering, at least not consciously.

    I don't know if other people do it this way or not, or if they simply arrive at this place through some other route. It works great if the tempo is slow enough and breaks down at breakneck tempos. When the tempo is fast enough I can't execute the lines I sing mentally. Unclear if more fingerings would really help that.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-27-2019 at 06:20 PM.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Maybe pro pit musicians avoid memorization in order to maintain exclusive reliance on extraordinary sight reading skills for performance quality?
    It is the other way about: they develop reading skill to avoid memorisation. Memory is defective and subjective. An orchestra is band of musicians who must play together; the scores tell each member exactly what he or she should be playing at a particular moment.