Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 51 to 85 of 85
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    Great - thank you very much!!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    I took out this book over the weekend to review the "Blues Solo". (I believe it's on page 39.) I really like that one.
    Anyway, I found myself thinking about Mickey's approach to fingering. He doesn't say too much about it in that book. Are we to assume he used "CAGED" fingerings?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojo27 View Post
    Frank,

    I'm reviewing Baker's "riffs" and "runs" right now, and as with the chord section, there are mistakes. Has anyone, to your knowledge, put together an "errata sheet" for this popular book? If not, it would be beneficial to very gradually compile a .pdf and post it somewhere, tagged with plenty Google words.

    For example, there's a mistake in the very first diminished run he presents. Page 30, Ex 24. The fingering should be "4 1 3 4" and not "4 1 2 4," as he writes it.
    I like to pretend that all the typos in MB are his way of making sure you're paying attention. It actually was helpful for me to catch the mistaken chords in the progressions, it requires you to really understand the principles behind his chord substitutions. Maybe the fingering mistakes are him subtly telling you to read the notes instead of the not-quite-TAB fingering notation

  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    Speaking of the errors in Mickey's book, I once downloaded a pdf listing many of them. I can't now recall where I downloaded it from. The file is backed up somewhere and I'm not going to look for it now; does anyone know offhand where to find it online?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Speaking of mistakes, in Lesson 16 the 6th stave, measure 2 should be Gm7 - C7b5 (not Cm7 - C7b5)

    Mickey wrote up lesson 16 a bit different. What I did was play all the G7 C7 variations as a group, then all the G7 Cmi variations as a group, then all the G7 Cmaj variations as a group. I repeted each two bar sequence 4 times. Mp3 backing tracks and BIAB SGU files can be found here: https://app.box.com/s/wzeagt2g3ubvo90dwnf75sdiyu0p3gfj

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I took out this book over the weekend to review the "Blues Solo". (I believe it's on page 39.) I really like that one.
    Anyway, I found myself thinking about Mickey's approach to fingering. He doesn't say too much about it in that book. Are we to assume he used "CAGED" fingerings?

    I suppose it's CAGED. But for me everything seems like an extension of CAGED.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    I suppose it's CAGED. But for me everything seems like an extension of CAGED.
    I thought about this after Reg started his thread on picking and gave a pdf of fingerings. I realized, "Hey, this is not what I'm used to." Nothing wrong with that, but I think at my age (56), I'm sticking with the fingerings I know. I may add some new things but my "default" (-to use a term Reg likes) is what it is now.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    Frank said: Speaking of mistakes, in Lesson 16 the 6th stave, measure 2 should be Gm7 - C7b5 (not Cm7 - C7b5)

    Frank, you are probably right. But if so, it is the exact same "mistake" from the previous lesson, discussed briefly by us above. That should raise an eyebrow or two..

    Let's assume for a moment he wrote what he intended to write. The changes for Lesson 15 are:

    Am7 to A13

    In Lesson 16:

    Cm7 to C7b5

    In each case we have a minor seventh resolving to a dominant seventh type, where one might more readily expect a ii - V sequence. My ears are willing to accept this parallel minor substitution IF it resolves (as it does in both cases) to the V7 with the same root.

    You could do this in a Blues in G:

    Bar 1: G7
    Bar 2: Cm7 C7
    Bar 3 and 4: G7, etc

    Unusual, perhaps, but not totally out there.

    Thoughts?

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    To me Frank is right that the cm7 should be gm7 simply because all the changes are usually close on the fretboard. The way it's written I had to go from position 8 in the first bar to position 3 for 2 beats then back to pos 9 for the c7b5. So I've marked that change in my book. Not that the chord is wrong, and I wouldn't want to argue with Rob Mc on that score, but it seems the intent of MB was to put the chords close together on the fingerboard.

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    Hi Rob,

    My thoughts...

    The first time through I thought, "what, Mickey doesn't do these large fretboard leaps/shifts between chord changes like this". (Same thought as W3stie's above).

    So:

    1- The fretboard leap/shift is large. If Mickey wanted a Cm7 to a C7b5 why not achieve the exact same notes going from form 5 to form 24 and get rid of the large leaps? (Exact same notes if you don't play the high note on form 5, which Mickey does at other places in the book, see the bottom of page 18 for instance. But exact same notes to that degree are not necessary, Mickey often drops or adds a voice between chord changes. So again, why not form 5 to form 24?)
    .
    2- Every other chord in that column is either a Gmi or a C dominant type chord making a Cmi7 inconsistent with the lesson.

    3- ii V progression are thoughout the book as are that specific fingering going from the form 18, Gmi7 to the form 24 C7b5

    In conclusion, it's out of character with the rest of the lesson and book. Given the book has lots of mistakes, the evidence is strong that this is a mistake. I believe in both cases these are mistakes. I put it on Mickey's editor.
    Last edited by fep; 07-21-2015 at 09:18 AM.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  12. #61

    User Info Menu


  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    Lesson # 17, applying Mickey Baker chords to a jazz standard



    Pdf of chords used, backing track, and BIAB file here: https://app.box.com/s/wzeagt2g3ubvo90dwnf75sdiyu0p3gfj

    Mickey Baker Course 1, mp3's and videos-all-me-1-jpg
    Mickey Baker Course 1, mp3's and videos-all-me-2-jpg
    Mickey Baker Course 1, mp3's and videos-all-me-3-jpg
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    Nice work, Frank! Sounds good. Solid and varied---who could ask for anything more in such a comp?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    In lesson #18 we have more chord work and I believe the first introduction of quarter note triplets and a dotted quarter followed by two 16th note figures.

    The quarter note triplets are a bit tricky as we are playing three notes over four beats. In the last exercise there are quarter notes, quarter note triplets, and eighth notes all mixed together. In the third exercise with the 16th notes, there are some fretboard leaps and grabs that happen really fast.

    I think the most difficult part of this lesson is to get the rhythms correct. It's best to practice with a metronome or the backing track to check if you are getting the rhythms right.

    Backing track and BIAB file are here: https://app.box.com/s/wzeagt2g3ubvo90dwnf75sdiyu0p3gfj

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Intro's in G Major

    I had made the point to Rob on an earlier post that Mickey doesn't do large shifts. I was wrong. In the third exercise there is a shift from Bmi7 to G6 that shifts from the 9th fret to the 2nd fret, and they're eighth notes. Yikes!

    I did each exercise twice. Since these are intros I don't have accompainment other than some swing drums for exercise 2 and 4. Exercise 1 and 3 are marked "Slowly" and exercise 2 and 4 are marked "Bounce". I've added swing drum backing tracks at my Box.net folder, one at 100bpm and one at 120bpm. https://app.box.com/s/wzeagt2g3ubvo90dwnf75sdiyu0p3gfj

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Thanks, Frank. That's one of my favorite lessons from the book.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    3 12 bar blues chord exercises. That third exercise, the jump from Gmaj7 to the unusual G13 fingering at the 7th fret is giving me trouble. Here it is:



    Backing track and BIAB file is here: https://app.box.com/s/wzeagt2g3ubvo90dwnf75sdiyu0p3gfj
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    Nice work, fep! So much of what Mickey taught back in the '50s still sounds good to me. (Not everyone's cup of tea, but it sure is mine!) I really appreciate you doing these video lessons.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    I just bought the books 1&2 about a week ago, and I have some questions about the method and thought it's better to ask here rather than opening a new thread.

    I had some fingering skills before getting serious with jazz, since I already tried to transcribe some of Joe Pass pieces (never finished though). Fingering the chords Mickey shows is not a big deal, but I'm having trouble understanding what I'm doing, since he doesn't really explain the why.

    In Lesson 3 and 4 he gives us standard progressions and some ideas on how to substitute them with more colourful chords. My question is: How should I approach this so I make the most out of it?? I can already play them all, and I almost know them by heart, but I believe I should also learn the standard line as well, otherwise there's no point on learning them. Even though, I don't really know how to memorize that, it's not like a history examen you have to prepare for high school....any help??

    Thanks a lot in advance

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    @jpm92

    That is a good point, Mickey is very short on explanations and theory.

    I'll try to tackle some of these questions as I proceed on this thread. You might also check out Rob's videos and thread, I recall him discussing some of the theory. Mickey Baker Vol.1 - videos

    Hopefully this will spring into some discussions specifically on Mickey's chord choices.

    Mickey's Book 1, at least the 1st half, is about giving alternative choices for chords and chord progressions. I break alternative chord choices into four categories; 1) Extensions, 2) Substitutions, 3) Approach chords and 4) Reharmonizations (Mickey doesn't discuss reharmonizations and neither will I). Note that sometimes an alternative chord choice can be explained in more than one of these categories.

    1) Extensions - Using the same root and chord quality while adding (or subtracting extra chord tones).

    For example in lesson 3 where Mickey uses a Gmaj6 and/or a Gmaj7 instead of a G chord. The root stays the same, G, and the quality stays the same, major.

    Another example in lesson 3 where Mickey uses a Ami7 and/or Ami6 instead of Am. The root stays the same, A, and the quality stays the same, minor.

    Another example in lesson 3 where Mickey uses a D13b5b9 instead of D7. The root stays the same, D, and the quality stays the same, dominant.

    The rule: try different chord extensions with the same root and quality. Let your ear be your guide as to whether you like it.

    Often times when you use extensions the chord will sound more "jazzy" and your ear might not like it or think of it as appropriate for certain genres like country or hard rock tunes.

    I'll discuss substitutions and approach chords in a separate post.

    Please post any questions you might have on what I just wrote.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    @jpm92

    That is a good point, Mickey is very short on explanations and theory.

    I'll try to tackle some of these questions as I proceed on this thread. You might also check out Rob's videos and thread, I recall him discussing some of the theory. Mickey Baker Vol.1 - videos

    Hopefully this will spring into some discussions specifically on Mickey's chord choices.

    Mickey's Book 1, at least the 1st half, is about giving alternative choices for chords and chord progressions. I break alternative chord choices into four categories; 1) Extensions, 2) Substitutions, 3) Approach chords and 4) Reharmonizations (Mickey doesn't discuss reharmonizations and neither will I). Note that sometimes an alternative chord choice can be explained in more than one of these categories.

    1) Extensions - Using the same root and chord quality while adding (or subtracting extra chord tones).

    For example in lesson 3 where Mickey uses a Gmaj6 and/or a Gmaj7 instead of a G chord. The root stays the same, G, and the quality stays the same, major.

    Another example in lesson 3 where Mickey uses a Ami7 and/or Ami6 instead of Am. The root stays the same, A, and the quality stays the same, minor.

    Another example in lesson 3 where Mickey uses a D13b5b9 instead of D7. The root stays the same, D, and the quality stays the same, dominant.

    The rule: try different chord extensions with the same root and quality. Let your ear be your guide as to whether you like it.

    Often times when you use extensions the chord will sound more "jazzy" and your ear might not like it or think of it as appropriate for certain genres like country or hard rock tunes.

    I'll discuss substitutions and approach chords in a separate post.

    Please post any questions you might have on what I just wrote.
    First of all, thanks! I never classified the alternative chords like that before...I just thought of them as substitutes. This has gave me a better understanding of the mechanics.
    Regarding Rob's videos, I saw them on youtube, but in lesson 3 and 4 he just plays the exercises...leaving me with the same question, when should I move to 6th excercise?

    Thanks again, your help is appreciated

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    @jpm92,

    In addition to Rob and FEP's videos, I found this site to be invaluable as I worked my way though MB Vol. 1.

    Mickey Baker

    Good luck!
    Joe
    "Your biggest discoveries come by playing" - Robert Conti

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by losaltosjoe View Post
    @jpm92,

    In addition to Rob and FEP's videos, I found this site to be invaluable as I worked my way though MB Vol. 1.

    Mickey Baker

    Good luck!
    Joe
    Already checked out as well. I heard of the anchoring finger technique thanks to it

    Thanks for the suggestion
    Last edited by jpm92; 09-16-2015 at 03:47 PM.

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    Mickey uses two choices for chord substitutions for major and minor chords; 1) a third above the root of the major or minor chord being substituted for and 2) a third below the root of the major chord being substituted for.

    Let’s look at major first:

    Let’s assume Cmaj7 is our original chord. A diatonic (to the key of C major) third above C is E, the diatonic chord in the key of C major with an E root is Emi (or Emi7). A diatonic (to the key of C major) third below C is A, the diatonic chord in the key of C major with an A root is Ami (or Ami7).

    So the substitutions that Mickey would use for Cmaj7 are either Em7 or Am7. Note that you can use extensions for these substitutions if you want. So Am9 could be used instead or or in addition to Am7. However, Em9 may or may not work… Do you know why?

    Why do these substitutions work? These chord substitutions work because they are so closely related.

    Cmaj7 = C E G B, Em = E G B… An Em chord is actually contained in a Cmaj7 chord.

    Cmaj9 = C E G B D, Em7 = E G B D… As you can see, an Em7 chord is part of a Cmaj9 chord.

    Am7 = A C E G, C = C E G, Cmaj6 = C E G A… Once again, these chords are very closely related.

    Examples of this in Mickey’s book are at page 11, 1st measure, where Mickey uses Emi7 as a sub for Cmaj. Also at measure 5 of page 11, Em7 sub for Cmaj. Measure 3 of page 11 where Mickey uses an Ami7 as a sub for Cmaj. There are many more.

    Now let’s look at substitutions for minor chords.

    Let’s assume Bm7 is our original chord. A diatonic (to the key of B minor) third above B is D, the diatonic chord in the key of B minor with a D root is Dmaj (or Dmaj7 or Dmaj6).

    (A diatonic (to the key of B minor) third below B is G, this is not a substitution I’ve seen so let’s skip it. There are no examples of Mickey doing this either.)

    The only example I’m finding of the sub for a minor chord is on page 21, stave 4, 2nd measure. Those chords on beat 2 and beat 4 have the chord symbols of Bmi7 and Bbmi7, since they have low notes or D and Db respectively, those fingerings are more commonly known as Dmaj6 and Dbmaj6 which is a sub for the Bmi7 and Bbmi7 respectively.

    Next up, Mickey’s substitutions for dominant chords.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Another voice thanking you for your great work in opening up this wonderful resource! The material you have shared has inspired me to work through Mickey's book. Thanks, too, to Losaltosjoe for the additional references.

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    Mickey frequently uses the ii chord as a sub for the V chord which is a common jazz substitution. In addition, he'll use the ii chord going back to the V chord creating a ii – V progression in place of the V chord.

    Note that often a dominant chord will not be the V of the tunes tonal center but will be a temporary V resolving to some other chord in a tune. For example a V/vi, a five of six, would be an E7 resolving to an Am in the key of C. You can also use the ii chord of the iv in this situation which makes a ii-V/vi or | Bm7 / E7 / | to Am.

    Mickey will often use the minor chord substitution for any dominant chord by using these m7 to the m6 chord. You can see this throughout the 1st half of the book, for example: page 4, system 3 m.2 he uses | Bmi7 / Bmi6 / | to sub for the E7; page 4, system 3 m.5 he uses | Bbmi7 / Bbmi6 / | to sub for the Eb7; page 4 system 4, m.1 the | Gmi7 / Gmi6 / | for the C7.

    To find the ii chord sub for the dominant just go a perfect 4th down from the root of the dominant chord or a perfect 5th up from the dominant chord. Here is an example in the key of F, notice how counting down 4 notes from the C7 gets you to the Gm7 and how counting up 5 notes from the C7 results also in a Gm7.

    Attachment 23735


    This all works because these ii chordis are similar to the V chord in that they share some of the same notes. In fact, a Gmi6 is a C9 without the C root. By making these subs Mickey is able to create some movement in the comping over a single chord.

    Mickey Baker Course 1, mp3's and videos-ii-v-sub-jpg


    Next, the tri-tone or b5 substitution for a dominant chord.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Ouch, what a finger-strecher-busta-rama.

    Notice how I cope with that Fmaj7 in the first exercise.

    Notation correction on staff number 6, the B note should be a Bb (under the Fmi chord).

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    Just wanted to say I've spent a lot of time with Mickey's book this week, especially the "Blues Solo" and "Bounce Blues" solo. A few things came together for me and I realized how far I've come since the first time I worked with this book.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  30. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Just wanted to say I've spent a lot of time with Mickey's book this week, especially the "Blues Solo" and "Bounce Blues" solo. A few things came together for me and I realized how far I've come since the first time I worked with this book.

    If you really dig this kind of blues, as I do, you'll love a TrueFire course entitled "West Coast Blues." It's "jump blues" on steroids, maybe -- the instructor is David Blacker, and he teaches these hundreds of licks as full choruses of blues.

    Mickey Baker's "Bounce Blues" would fit well in this collection of solos I think. Check it out!


    kj

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojo27 View Post
    If you really dig this kind of blues, as I do, you'll love a TrueFire course entitled "West Coast Blues." It's "jump blues" on steroids, maybe -- the instructor is David Blacker, and he teaches these hundreds of licks as full choruses of blues.

    Mickey Baker's "Bounce Blues" would fit well in this collection of solos I think. Check it out!


    kj
    Thanks for the tip. I saw a free lesson of his (David Blacker) that seemed good to me.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Lesson 13: Mickey asked us to also try these vamps with the bass style and arpeggio styles from lesson 8. I mixed those in. The arpeggio style was the challenge for me. Since this is a swing you need to swing the arpeggio. Sometimes there are five note chords but only 4 eighth notes to play them in, so when doing the arpeggio you have to decide which notes to play. Sometimes I played two notes on the last eighth note.

    Backing track attached.

    I was looking at this lesson this morning because a later lesson (-dealing with groove riffs) mentioned it. In reading Mickey's intro to the lesson, I noticed that he said vamps were important to jump and novelty tunes. I wasn't into jump blues / tunes the first time I did the vamps lesson but I'm very much into that now. (I also like novelty tunes with amusing lyrics but that's another story.)

    I think this is the sort of thing Mickey is talking about here:


    Do you (-anyone here, not just Frank) play many / any jump tunes? If so, which ones do you find most congenial to Mickey's approach?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    Has this already been posted here? It's a video of Mickey playing blues. Pretty hip.

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    This is pretty cool too, but you don't get to Mickey playing.

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    I know this is an old thread...but I wanted to give a huge thanks to Frank for creating these and offering them for free. I just purchased Mickey's book and hoped there was something out there like this. Having a backing track for newbies like me that have a hard time hearing the root of rootless voicings really helps! Especially on on chord 6 (D13b5b9). So...thank you!

  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jsmith2500 View Post
    I know this is an old thread...but I wanted to give a huge thanks to Frank for creating these and offering them for free. I just purchased Mickey's book and hoped there was something out there like this. Having a backing track for newbies like me that have a hard time hearing the root of rootless voicings really helps! Especially on on chord 6 (D13b5b9). So...thank you!
    The rest of the book is on the back burner, I plan on finishing this someday.

    Thanks, and I'm glad it's helpful to you.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)