Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar

**Jazzpunk** · 12-27-2010, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Banksia

It is definitely worth working through because those chords and their applications are all still used today. Also, one of the hardest things for beginners is the feeling that you are not making any progress. With the first page of chords in the Mickey book you start sounding jazzy - you can pick up a standard like "Out of Nowhere" and you can sound like a jazz player.

I think its worth learning older material, particularly for guitarists, because one of the best jazz lineups you hear these days is the guitar backing a singer, usually on old standards.

I also believe that jazz isn't just a system of notes and chords. Jazz is a culture. It has history, legends, movements, reactions and low points. I believe that Rosenwinkel only exists because Charlie Christian existed, and Django and Lonnie Johnson. Half of the meaning of Parker comes from contrasting him against what came before - Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young.

Thanks for your insights!

**Jazzpunk** · 12-27-2010, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dad3353

Good afternoon, Jazzpunk...
Finish it first, then ask again...

Haha, planning on it! Definitely enjoying it so far.

**peterk1** · 12-27-2010, 05:43 PM

I'm enjoying it too, and after spending two practice sessions applying those ideas in L1 -L16 to All The Things You Are, I do have something, and it sounds OK...I just wished it sounded a little better.

Mickey seems to be leaning mostly on stuff like this for the II -V

Orig : Dm7 / / / G7 / / /
Altered: Dm7 / Dm6 / Dm7 / G13 G7#5b9

I don't know....elongating the Dm7 so you're playing it longer than the bar it's been allotted doesn't sound too dynamic. I wish there were more ideas given for that progression.

I'll check to see if I can find the Em/A7/Dm/G7 idea but I'm pretty sure he hasn't introduced any tritone subs yet.

He does have some nice ideas presented for 2 bars of a maj7 chord which sound totally square if you don't have any tricks up your sleeve.

**Dad3353** · 12-27-2010, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by peterk1

...I wish there were more ideas given for that progression...

Good evening, peterk1...
Have you perhaps skipped too quickly over Lessons 10, 11 & 12? All the possibilities are not on the pages, of course (did you do the 'scrapbook' part for your own findings..?). If you look at most Realbooks, you'll be able to recognise most alternative chords. Personally, I work out from the Vanilla book, then compare with a Realbook to see how others have interpreted things.
It's true that some of these 'building blocks' can sound 'corny' on their own, you have to play around with them (arpeggios, trying out melody lines, altering notes here and there...) to wring a bit of fun out of them. It's all there, though, to be found...

**peterk1** · 12-27-2010, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dad3353

Good evening, peterk1...
Have you perhaps skipped too quickly over Lessons 10, 11 & 12?

Not really. There are precious few ideas for ii-V's in there, directly annotated as being good over a ii-V ...and the one's that are, I'm using them. I think that using the vanilla book instead of a fake book is probably a good idea here.

**BigSteve** · 12-28-2010, 01:07 PM

Hi all!

Just letting you know I'm still here and will be ready to move onto lesson 4 in a couple of days.
There are still one or two changes that I'm not quite smooth on, but I'll be there soon and it'll sound even better.

For variety, is now a good time to pick something out of Aebersold's Vol 54 (Maiden Voyage) to have a go at or should I stick with pure MB for a bit longer?

I'm finding the dextrous challenge of the MB lessons very addictive.

Steve

**Dad3353** · 12-28-2010, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by BigSteve

...something out of Aebersold's Vol 54 (Maiden Voyage) ...

Good evening, BigSteve...
Well done..!

No, it's not too early to put into (modest...) application the chords you've adopted. Might I suggest 'Satin Doll' as being (fairly...) easy? It has lot's of 'ii-V7' for you to substitute (play the written chords first, then try to fit MB chords appropriately...). Let us know how you find it (or whatever you choose...), please?
Hope this helps...
(keep up the MB, of course; Maiden Voyage and such is as well, not instead of..!

)

**WhoisLevang** · 12-31-2010, 02:32 AM

About 30 years ago I worked my way through roughly half of the first book with no real grasp of what I was doing. Just did the exercises and tried to get them to sound musical to me. Over the years the chords have been nice to have to hand, but I suspect that I still do not have the basic jazz background one should have before going into the books. :-(
Having those major 6s and 7s under your belt sure makes it easier to play the intro for SRVs' "Lenny" though...

**lindydanny** · 12-31-2010, 10:20 AM

Get the "Jazz Bible" as well. It isn't a good guitar book, but reading through it to simply understand the theory at work is a big help when you start. Then, pick up a lot of music (or go on youtube) of jazz guitarists. I'm not that good on names, but others here can help you.

It also helps to know what your goal in jazz is. For example, I want to be a competent rhythm guitarist and accompanist. So, doing a lot of work on solo theory isn't as beneficial to me as learning chord shapes, progressions, harmony, and bass theory. Once you start breaking your goals down, you can get some very specific ideas on what you need to study and books/teachers are everywhere for almost anything music.

~DB

**WhoisLevang** · 12-31-2010, 08:59 PM

Thanks DB, When I get a chance, I'll try to get a copy of the book.
I think it's just a matter of learning more jazz tunes. I've played blues and rock for a long time, but I took about a year of classical tutelage almost a decade ago. I had three tutors, one a composer, yet none of them even mentioned "transcribing". I've "written" a lot of music over the years and still can't actually write it down. ( lot's of basic stuff, but my twist on it ) I could probably cobble up a chord chart, but writing/transcribing isn't much in my skill set. I know more than a few songs that go beyond the basics, but still need to learn.
I guess I know all these jokes because so many seem to apply to me!

"How many blues bass players does it take to change the light bulb?"
...
...
One
...
Four
...
Five
...
One
...
Four
...
Five

I'm not a bass player but... you get the idea.

Now, here's my next question- Is II,V,I the jazz equivalent of I,IV,V? Is it usually the head or start of the tune? Another problem for me- I am familiar with the circle of 5ths / 4ths. I see how it's used in some tunes. (2 of the 3 I am working on have obvious examples of it's use- Bluesette and Autumn Leaves.) but I still don't really get how to jump on it, and then jump off in the process of playing. All of this speaks to my needing to learn a lot more jazz tunes.
I have a book by Jerry Coker which is mostly jazz theory and again, without a background of the jazz basics, it's not only dry, but almost indecipherable for me. ( well, not quite, but not a page turner either... )
Thank you for the feedback!
Happy New Year!

**Drumbler** · 01-01-2011, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by WhoisLevang

Now, here's my next question- Is II,V,I the jazz equivalent of I,IV,V? Is it usually the head or start of the tune? Another problem for me- I am familiar with the circle of 5ths / 4ths. I see how it's used in some tunes. (2 of the 3 I am working on have obvious examples of it's use- Bluesette and Autumn Leaves.) but I still don't really get how to jump on it, and then jump off in the process of playing.

1-6-2-5 more like it.

1-6-2-5-1-6-2-5

But this is simplistic.

You need a good grounding in jazz chords and substitutions to make progress.

My suggestion is Mickey Baker's Book 1. Get those chords and their uses under your fingers.

**lindydanny** · 01-01-2011, 06:20 PM

I'll add to what he said: 2-5-1's also modulate a lot. Which is why some charts will have a minor 1 chord in them. 6-2-5-1's and 2-5-1's are just so prevalent in Jazz that you really have to get those chord progressions in as many inversions and keys as possible under your fingers.

Think about it like you can do G C G D without thinking, right? Figure the same for Em7 C7 Gmaj7.

~DB

**TooSteep** · 01-02-2011, 01:31 AM

Is this the correct thread to ask lesson specific questions on the MB book?

I am wondering how, in Lesson 3 Exercise 1, he comes up with the Bbmi7 sub for Gdim? Are the two chords related somehow, or is he just substituting the 'function' of the Gdim, a passing chord, for an equally effective passing chord in the Bbmi7 - both of them leading to an Ami(7) chord?

Thanks.

**Drumbler** · 01-02-2011, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by TooSteep

Is this the correct thread to ask lesson specific questions on the MB book?

I am wondering how, in Lesson 3 Exercise 1, he comes up with the Bbmi7 sub for Gdim? Are the two chords related somehow, or is he just substituting the 'function' of the Gdim, a passing chord, for an equally effective passing chord in the Bbmi7 - both of them leading to an Ami(7) chord?

Thanks.

The chords share two notes (Bb and Db) which is generally enough of a relationship to allow substitution.

This sequence is found/works in the following songs:

Song List of 1maj

**Banksia** · 01-02-2011, 09:18 AM

Here's an example of that. Please excuse my sloppy playing, tone, digressions from subject, etc.

**Dooce** · 01-05-2011, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Michael_Joyce

Hi Jazz Bug et al;

I have been hosting a website called the "Advanced Guitar Study Group" which is based on Mickey's Vol 1.
Best regards and good luck,
Mike Joyce

Wow Mike ... what a fabulous resource and incredible amount of work. And free, too. Many many thanks!

**MarkRhodes** · 01-05-2011, 08:53 AM

I ordered the Mickey Baker book and got a call yesterday that it's in. I'll pick it up today and get started. I had the book years ago and learned some of the chords and a few blues substitutions but I didn't delve into the material or keep at it. I intend to this time!

**stratcat33511** · 01-07-2011, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

1-6-2-5 more like it.

1-6-2-5-1-6-2-5

But this is simplistic.

You need a good grounding in jazz chords and substitutions to make progress.

My suggestion is Mickey Baker's Book 1. Get those chords and their uses under your fingers.

Nothing more timeless eh?
One of my favorite progressions of all time
50's anyone ?

**lindydanny** · 01-10-2011, 01:23 PM

I'm working through Lesson 4 right now and I noticed that you can chop of the lines a little bit that he gives you as substitutions and get most of the Rhythm Changes. It was kind of cool to finally see it there.

~DB

**Hernandinho** · 01-21-2011, 01:55 PM

Slowly but surely progressing here... Almost 2 years so far, but of course not 2 hours a day. 1/2 hour 2 or 3 times a week if I'm lucky. On lesson 15 at the moment (bridges), doing my homework on the non-C scales.

One thing that I found useful for my practice was, before I start work on the current lesson, go through all the previous lessons in one or 2 scales. Good exercise for loosening up the fingers.

(Actually, not *all* the previous lessons, just the 4 or 5 ones that are in different scales: chord progressing, intros, vamps.)

By the way, I notice that when I play the Mickey Baker chords in the first 2 or 3 positions of the neck, I get a lot of low-end "rumble". Mostly when I play them on my nylon-string acoustic. Anybody else experience that?

I was thinking (and dreading the prospect) of putting on some thicker strings. Currently I think I have medium gause ones. Hopefully that won't cause too much more neck bow...

**MarkRhodes** · 03-13-2011, 07:32 PM

I have a question about Lesson 24, Ex. 4. (It's the first lesson in Part Two of the first book, the beginning of picking / solo studies.)

Exercise four begins with a quarter note triplet (-meaning two beats) followed by a eighth note triplet (one beat) and a quarter note (one beat). Great. But measure two has a beat of sixteenth notes, a quarter note triplet, and a quarter note---that's only 3 beats! Where's the other beat???? (The measures on either side have four beats.)

Also, Ex 3 has three eighth note triplets in the second measure and that's all--it's a beat short! (The measures on either side of it have four beats.)

What gives?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-13-2011, 09:04 PM

The sixteenths seem out of context with the rest of it. Making them (swinging) eighths makes musical sense as it ties it to the next measure as a motif.

I think we need typo threads for a lot of these "standard" books. Definitely need one for the real book.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-13-2011, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

The sixteenths seem out of context with the rest of it. Making them (swinging) eighths makes musical sense as it ties it to the next measure as a motif.

I thought so too, though I think Baker wants the exercises to mix rhythms so players can get used to handling them with simple melodic material (-in this case a scale.) But I have to think typo because it doesn't add up to four beats.

In the next lesson, he mixes quarters and eighths, then sixteenths and thirty-seconds. That's a good picking exercise.

**stratcat33511** · 03-14-2011, 07:22 PM

I have the new revised edition and it has the same thing.
Does your version have a C for cut time in there ?
Even then I think its wrongk
But if its right then I'm wrong

**MarkRhodes** · 03-15-2011, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by stratcat33511

I have the new revised edition and it has the same thing.Does your version have a C for cut time in there ?

No, there's no time signature at all. By the way, I thought "C" stood for "common time" (4/4). But either way, there's no time signature.

I was flipping through the book yesterday, looking at lessons to come and back over previous ones. I noticed the use of "course" for "chorus." That surprised me. I don't think Mickey was responsible for that!