Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar

[matt.guitarteacher]

I've taught lessons for years but not jazz. After playing jazz off and on for about ten years, I've been thinking about what I would use to get someone else started playing.

I keep coming back to the Baker book because of its simplicity and the fact that it quickly gets you playing something that sounds jazzy. For my own personal study, I've used the Levitt and Jody Fisher books but think that they're not really the place to start a beginner.

Is there something comparable to Mickey Baker in terms of simplicity that other people have found for introducing simple jazz playing to beginners or even as a sampling to test a students interest.

[ecohen]

I think Arnie Berle's books are a good approach (one on jazz chords and the other on scales and modes). They both start with basic theory and basic chords or scales, then work slowly to more advanced techniques. I'm self-teaching and have found them to be very practical and good compliments to the baker book (Baker makes me sound good, Berle let's me know what I'm doing so that I can build on what Baker teaches me).

[Reg]

I've taught lessons for years but not jazz. After playing jazz off and on for about ten years, I've been thinking about what I would use to get someone else started playing.

I keep coming back to the Baker book because of its simplicity and the fact that it quickly gets you playing something that sounds jazzy. For my own personal study, I've used the Levitt and Jody Fisher books but think that they're not really the place to start a beginner.

Is there something comparable to Mickey Baker in terms of simplicity that other people have found for introducing simple jazz playing to beginners or even as a sampling to test a students interest.

For beginners I think Baker's books are a great start, there from the period when jazz was being defined, at least on paper. They don't cover material in much depth, but at least they take the student on the journey with standard music notation and avoid the momentary gratification method which appears to often.The berklee books are great, but their beginner stuff is weak. Unfortunately teachers need to supplement material for all the methods I've been exposed to. Good luck, if you come across stuff,pass it on...Reg

[Oetomo]

Hi,

I am too going through Mickey's book right now, and I have a question on the exercises that he presented in lessons 2,3 and 4.

Is the student expected to memorize the new chords progression as applied to the old chords progression. What I mean by this is if anytime I see Gdim in the future I would have to substitute it for Bmin7 and D13b5b9 for D7 etc. If this is the intention of these exercises, or is it to build up the student's chords vocabulary.

Why did I start learning Jazz so late in life????? Should have done this 30 years ago, may be I will not be asking such moronic question by now. Anyway thanks in advance.

Tomo

[Drumbler]

Hi,

I am too going through Mickey's book right now, and I have a question on the exercises that he presented in lessons 2,3 and 4.

Is the student expected to memorize the new chords progression as applied to the old chords progression. What I mean by this is if anytime I see Gdim in the future I would have to substitute it for Bmin7 and D13b5b9 for D7 etc. If this is the intention of these exercises, or is it to build up the student's chords vocabulary.

Why did I start learning Jazz so late in life????? Should have done this 30 years ago, may be I will not be asking such moronic question by now. Anyway thanks in advance.

Tomo

Baker's lesson is to teach you chord substitution.

For example, when you see a G7 in a bar you might play Dm7-G13.

If you have a Real Book you will find after memorizing these subs that you can comp with these chord subs.

A good way to memorize these is to write the original chord sequences (perhaps in 2-bar groups) on one side of a 3x5 index card and the sub chords on the other side. Then go through the cards several times every day.

[nga_tom_s]

Hi,

Is the student expected to memorize the new chords progression as applied to the old chords progression. What I mean by this is if anytime I see Gdim in the future I would have to substitute it for Bmin7 and D13b5b9 for D7 etc. If this is the intention of these exercises, or is it to build up the student's chords vocabulary.

Why did I start learning Jazz so late in life????? Should have done this 30 years ago, may be I will not be asking such moronic question by now. Anyway thanks in advance.

Tomo

What Mickey is doing is enriching your chord vocabulary, you now have more choices for playing, you could play the original, or the substitution or both - depends on how many beats the chord is noted for, and there are even subs for the subs which opens up even more options or cans of worms.
Don't feel alone in starting 30 years late - I wish someone would have impressed on me that the guitar is after all a musical instrument and one should learn something about music along the way, not just playing some tunes. Every day I become more amazed at how much I don't know and probably will never know in this lifetime - I have been playing now for over 45 years. Jazz is not for the faint of heart.

tom

[peterk1]

My question, though, is how strongly is it recommended that I practice 2 hours per day and only move on to the next lesson after a week?

That's a legitimate question. I'm in the same boat as you...I cannot possibly imagine myself doing a lesson from the book for two hours non-stop. In most cases I'm spending about 15 mins a day. Some lessons however, where he asks you to transpose the previous lesson to multiple keys definitely ask for more than that, especially if you're trying to transpose in your head. For those cases I'll dig in more, but it's not tedious just due to the sheer volume of stuff to do.

And there's another element too which may make the two hours justified. He never gives the target tempo for exercises. I typically use 80 bpm as a light target...but you know, if you're expected to take them up to 160, then two hours a day for week is probably not even going to be close to enough at first. I often wonder how fast he would expect his students to take things.

Still, great book. It's the only system I've seen so far that answers, right off the bat, the common question of how to make 2 bars of straight CMaj7 (or any common chord) sound intersting.

[Drumbler]

peterk1,

We all do the best we can with the time available to us. Have fun.

You ultimately have to memorize these lessons. If you can memorize them in 15 minutes then that's all you need.

Try to put things into use as soon as possible. For example, Lesson 6 has some intros, so when you play a jazz tune use an intro you like from the lesson to start things off.

Use the chord sequences in your comping over a tune, etc.

If you play Rhythm Changes use the vamps in the lesson 13 (when you get that far). The vamps are 8 bars and are rhythm changes progressions.

[peterk1]

It's not really a question of time availability. I've been practicing about 3 hours a day for a few years. And Mickey is a small part of that that I do near the beginning. I'm up to lesson 9 now. I think I'm actually quite a bit past the intended level for that part of the book and I'm waiting for when things get much more challenging (the second half of the book will be perfect). But, even so, there's still some gems of knowledge hiding in those early lessons that make it definitely worthwhile for me.

So, back to my original question....what target tempo is everyone using? I'm using 80 for the comping, but 120 might be a more reasonable choice - with a huge increase in time commitment.

[Drumbler]

It depends on the tune.

[Oetomo]

What Mickey is doing is enriching your chord vocabulary, you now have more choices for playing, you could play the original, or the substitution or both - depends on how many beats the chord is noted for, and there are even subs for the subs which opens up even more options or cans of worms.
Don't feel alone in starting 30 years late - I wish someone would have impressed on me that the guitar is after all a musical instrument and one should learn something about music along the way, not just playing some tunes. Every day I become more amazed at how much I don't know and probably will never know in this lifetime - I have been playing now for over 45 years. Jazz is not for the faint of heart.

tom

Thank you for your encouragement. I only wish I had started this earlier rather than squandered so much of my time on less purposeful pursuit. I guess the adage "youth is wasted on the young" ( I think it is something that effect), couldn't be more apt to describe what I feel right now.

[Stylemaster]

I started reading this thread last year and then it got lost in the shuffle. I bought my first copy of this book when I started playing in my teens and bought another copy in middle age when the first went missing. I still have not gotten past Lesson 2. Stigmas abound. But I found this site and this thread again so maybe I can dig in and finally learn Mickey Baker's jazz guitar lessons this summer. I can't afford a teacher because I have an expensive daughter - those two things make it all the more daunting but maybe, as Charlie Parker once said/played, "Now's the Time."

[Henry Mars]

I used these books way back in the '60s.
I don't think they are difficult, but they are a very good short cut to the assimilation of a great deal of material.
As far as being out of date ....BS .... If you listen to just about any jazz guitarist, theses devices are still being used a lot.
The only caveat in my mind is that proper technique and positioning be used on some of the "upper partial" stuff because a beginner could develop tendinitis if not executed properly.
This guy managed to pack a lot info into very few pages.

[jeffstritt]

I just recieved the first Mickey Baker book from www.amazon.com . I heard all the talk here, and figured that for seven bucks, I might as well find out what all the fuss is about.
I have been playing jazz guitar for a while, but I started as a blues and rock player. I find that even though this books is at a considerably more beginner level than where I am at right now, it is filling in a lot of holes in my playing. Perhaps I ran before I could walk?
At any rate, I can definitely see why people continue to use this method. If I had this from the beginning when I started playing jazz, I would probably be much further along than I am today.

As for the talk about improvisation... I know that as musicians we all want to be excellent soloists, but the fact of the matter is that the modern guitar player is going to spend most of this time playing a supporting role. I think that in order to make a guitar player "gig ready" you should spend far more time on chord voicings and learning standards than trying to play a bunch of fast angular lines.

These are just my opinions for what they are worth.

[Drumbler]

As for the talk about improvisation... I know that as musicians we all want to be excellent soloists, but the fact of the matter is that the modern guitar player is going to spend most of this time playing a supporting role. I think that in order to make a guitar player "gig ready" you should spend far more time on chord voicings and learning standards than trying to play a bunch of fast angular lines.

These are just my opinions for what they are worth.

Indeed.

While Mickey Baker's book does delve into improvisation quite a bit in the 2nd half of the book, the first half is invaluable for comping and chords.

[fumblefingers]

I just can speak about my experience.
Mickey baker's book is a nice tool, but a lot of things are hide in the background. For a deep explanation, you will have to go on the website of Michael.

What is great with this book, is that you can make exercises and it sounds from the begining like music.. It focuses not espacially on theory, but practise and practise. Even if you understand nothing , you can play something which sound like jazz guitar.

The chords used are mainly subsitution from other chords. It doesn't matter.
You can work on chord groups which work together, and playing them all the neck will make you for sure a better guitarist. You will not learn all the chords available, but a good basis to play a lot of things and have fun
You will surprise you very quick improvising by combining theses chords.

After that, playing by sightreading all the fake books is an other thing because you have to know and read all the subsitution on the fly.
Easy for some of us here, very complicated for me.

The learning frame is good if you like this style.

If you want to learn "easier chords" (3 notes chords), learn how to ignore all the embellishement (b519, ....), and play quicker rhythm guitar with fake book or tabs in the freddie green style, I recommand you to give a try to this book "Swing and big band guitar, four-to-the-bar comping in the style of freddie green / by charlton johnson". It has all the exercises and backtracks on CD. I bought it recently and I like it a lot.

Mickey baker book is like reading the bible

it has a lot of useful material but like many similarly named books is the very furthest thing from being "complete".

[gadabout55]

The Maj7 to Maj6 change is a "bread and butter" change that you must get down. No shortcuts. There are much tougher changes than this. Personally, I don't anchor my pinky but I'm comfortable doing it.

[Dad3353]

Good evening, all...
Some are luckier than others...
Like 'StyleMaster', I bought Vol. I at 16, in 1966, with my first pay, along with my first guitar (a Russian-made steel-strung 'classical' guitar, neck was a telegraph pole, neck joint was a single horizontal bolt...), on a whim. I spent months trying out these chords on this impossible instrument. I've had several guitars since (only as an amateur; I played drums for a living when I moved to France in '77, but no-one would pay to hear what I do with a guitar...). I've looked at quite a few books and methods (including Marcel Dadi, which is excellent for a novice, being very clear and complete...), but am now on my third (or fourth..?) copy of Mickey's books, I and II. I'll be 60 in a few days time (no, really, no cards or presents, just cheques..:-), and thank my lucky stars to have, by pure accident at the time, stumbled upon such a loded goldmine. Whoever has these books has for a life-time (or more...); even if one cannot sustain the effort in one sitting (a year or two...), it will still be there later to come back to, or revise.
There are other methods (and even other styles of playing, or so I'm told..:-), but these are by far, IMHO, the best value for money of any.
As a complement I recommend Mark Levine - The Jazz Theory Book, which covers a lot of ground (general music, not especially guitar...) which makes sense.
My current guitars: blond Hofner Committee (the old lady...), a Samick 335 copy, DaisyRock Retro-H 12-string (no it's not jazz, but what the h***...) and a brilliant Xavière Thinline tele look-alike.
I don't play any particular style, just a kind of cross-culture 'mash-up' following wherever my fingers take me. In fact, I maintain that I play exactly the same as the 'greats', that is: I throw my fingers at the strings (I've seen them do it..!). It's just that they are a bit luckier than I am, that's all.
Whatever; it's thanks to Mickey for the excellent and perennial method that allows me to modestly enjoy my guitars.
The site is excellent, Michael, I've started once again from the beginning with your help, and find even more than with the book alone. Many thanks, and congratulations on the enormous achievement.
Long life to (Sir...) Mickey Baker, eternal thanks...

[franco6719]

"In fact, I maintain that I play exactly the same as the 'greats', that is: I throw my fingers at the strings (I've seen them do it..!). It's just that they are a bit luckier than I am, that's all."

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! You are a certain kind of genius obviously!

[Hernandinho]

Hi, I'm back to working on the M. Baker method again after a year or so of absence from the instrument. Half an hour a day more or less. Just as a hobby of course...

Just started mixing it up with a bit of the "Music reading for guitar" every practice session, so when I reach the 2nd part of the book I'm not too lost with having to read charts.

One of my main issues also is lack of repertoire, so I'm thinking of buying some book of standards. There is this "Swingin' Jazz Guitar" book by Alfred that looks promising -- it has all chord shapes spelled out, which should be good for a newbie like me. Later on I guess I can "graduate" to the Real Book.

Really enjoying getting back into the Baker Method... it's like getting a brand new guitar.

[lindydanny]

I've only been going through book one for a little bit (up to lesson 4 this week). It can be a huge pain.

I guess I assumed there was a book two but never really thought about it. Anyone got some insight of what to expect (years from now when I am ready)?

~DB

[Papadoc]

@ Hernandinho:
Get the Real Book. If you stick with the Mickey Baker book, you'll learn the chords that voice many of the tunes in the Real Book. Not that they go together, but you can make them go together in that way.

[Dad3353]

I've only been going through book one for a little bit (up to lesson 4 this week). It can be a huge pain.

I guess I assumed there was a book two but never really thought about it. Anyone got some insight of what to expect (years from now when I am ready)?

~DB

Good evening, lindydanny...
Book II is complementary to I, we start off looking at 'moving notes' within a chord, and leading to another chord, to join them up. Chord/Melody is introduced, Cadence, symetrical cycles, intros and endings, resolutions, pedal point and counterpoint.
The subjects are covered in a rather summary manner (not too deeply, nor too long, just enough to get one started...), and examples throughout illustrate. One is encouraged (indeed, it's the whole point...) to develop and work out/improvise one's own application of the principles shown.
Not too much heavy theory (40 pages in all...), but quite a lot of work to do the whole thing.
I find it gives a break from Book I, but I've not got too far (in 40 years..!) in applying to my play, but I certainlty appreciate reading through it regularly.
In all, perhaps not indispensable, but I'm a nostalgic old b***** and I've bought it again every time I've lost it.
Hope this helps...
(I stll maintain that it's all down to luck (mutters off into the distance, slams door...)

[Drumbler]

There's enough in Mickey Baker Book 1 to last many, many years.

But hardly anyone here gets through more than a few lessons.

[billkath]

I'm on lesson 23 this week. Next week I'm spending the whole week going through all the lessons in part 1 again, right from lesson 2. Then it's on to the great unknown! bought book 2 at the same time. When I started lesson 2 I put the 2nd book into a plastic sleeve, knowing that it'll be a year till I get to it!