Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar

[Rob MacKillop]

Mickey Baker's book does have the string and fret notated for the notes.

Dear fep, your more avant-garde fingering might stem from this misunderstanding. MB shows string and FINGER numbers, not frets. Just gently pulling your leg...

[Jack E Blue]

Thank you Rob, now I see it.
I was not comparing all to G , point is the change to Fmaj did not make sense to me when I saw the Ebmaj... so there are those two key changes and then back to G.
Now it also make sense the Lesson 22 "Endings" that contain movements of chords sometimes all of them in maj7.

I am alone studying this book and grabbed a guitar for the first time (literally) 1.5y ago, sorry guys for the dumb questions.
So happy you could help me!

Now I plan to start all over again and memorize the progressions, then I will attack the soloing part, I am a bit afraid of the need to read music in the second part of the book.
Any suggestions on learning to read notation? is it correct to just continue with the soloing part or would it be better to learn notation from other source?
what would you recommend?

I learned to read music (decipher would actually be a better word) and learned the notes on the fret board using part 2 of Baker's book. It can be done. It just takes a lot of patience.

I used this online game to drill the lines and spaces of the staff. Finding the notes on the fret board was the hard part for me.
Notably Quick Guitar

[fep]

Dear fep, your more avant-garde fingering might stem from this misunderstanding. MB shows string and FINGER numbers, not frets. Just gently pulling your leg...

I made sort of a correction. I looked at the 1st note of Ex. 1 and jumped to a conclusion. Happens to be C on the 5th string labeled as S. 5, F. 3. Well string 5 and fret 3 is that C note.

[Hardscrabble]

Just commenting to start following as I started in with the baker book this week.

[Pittpanther]

Hello everyone. Just started on book 1 last week, still learning and memorizing the 26 chords forms. Just playing the chords as written is the easiest part, but looking at the composition of the chords (finding the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc), and remembering the notes up and down the fretboard is a challenge.

Wondering if you guys went through the effort of learning the chords in various keys? Since we're now jazz guys, we're going to see a lot of songs written in horn keys - F, Bb, Eb - and not so much guitar keys like G and D.
Did you test yourself by, for example, trying to play all 3 ma7 chords in Bb? Or how to play the D11 shape in F?

Anyway, glad to be here among my peers!

[AllanAllen]

I started with lesson two. You actually transpose progressions later in the book so just learn the chords then when you use them. And you know, it's guitar, you just move the shape to the right fret.

Maybe someone who is a competent jazz player will tell you otherwise, I'm just a guy who's also working through the book.

[Jack E Blue]

Hello everyone. Just started on book 1 last week, still learning and memorizing the 26 chords forms. Just playing the chords as written is the easiest part, but looking at the composition of the chords (finding the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc), and remembering the notes up and down the fretboard is a challenge.

Wondering if you guys went through the effort of learning the chords in various keys? Since we're now jazz guys, we're going to see a lot of songs written in horn keys - F, Bb, Eb - and not so much guitar keys like G and D.
Did you test yourself by, for example, trying to play all 3 ma7 chords in Bb? Or how to play the D11 shape in F?

Anyway, glad to be here among my peers!

My recommendation: I wouldn't spend time on lesson 1 because all the chord shapes are introduced a few at a time throughout the 1st half of the book. Just learn them when they are presented. Regarding different keys: Mickey will have you doing that soon enough.

[Hardscrabble]

This is what I've been doing so that's good to hear, I'll learn them much faster in exercises / progressions.

Re: the progressions starting in Lesson 4/ Lesson 5.

In lesson 5 re: transposing Mickey says to memorize them, in terms of what to memorize/ understand about those?

• Is it the motions of moving between those new chord shapes fluidly? (assume yes)
• Is it important to memorize what the chords they are 'replacing' are, the 'old chords'? (yes?)
• To be able to play through them all without the 'charts'? (yes?- or maybe with only the old chords- e.g. you know the substitutions by heart)
• Should I understand why these chords are the important ones to learn in a given key to start? (Like do they fit together in a scale? are they just the most prevalent idiomatic jazz chords? I recognize the sounds but I don't really understand why these chords in particular are the ones that are getting substituted or what I should be memorizing.)
• Lastly should I know what the 'makeup' of each chord is ? I find that confusing, especially voicing with no root like the D13b5b9

Or don't worry about the above and stick to the letter of the book?

I'm finding it relatively easy to learn the chord shapes but I know they will stick with me better if I understand a little more of the why. Appreciate everyone's patience I can see versions of these questions being asked before.

thanks.

[Jack E Blue]

This is what I've been doing so that's good to hear, I'll learn them much faster in exercises / progressions.

Re: the progressions starting in Lesson 4/ Lesson 5.

In lesson 5 re: transposing Mickey says to memorize them, in terms of what to memorize/ understand about those?

• Is it the motions of moving between those new chord shapes fluidly? (assume yes)
• Is it important to memorize what the chords they are 'replacing' are, the 'old chords'? (yes?)
• To be able to play through them all without the 'charts'? (yes?- or maybe with only the old chords- e.g. you know the substitutions by heart)
• Should I understand why these chords are the important ones to learn in a given key to start? (Like do they fit together in a scale? are they just the most prevalent idiomatic jazz chords? I recognize the sounds but I don't really understand why these chords in particular are the ones that are getting substituted or what I should be memorizing.)
• Lastly should I know what the 'makeup' of each chord is ? I find that confusing, especially voicing with no root like the D13b5b9

Or don't worry about the above and stick to the letter of the book?

I'm finding it relatively easy to learn the chord shapes but I know they will stick with me better if I understand a little more of the why. Appreciate everyone's patience I can see versions of these questions being asked before.

thanks.

I'd say yes to all of the above, but all this stuff will come to you gradually as you work thru the book.

One thing I'd suggest is that you learn the Roman numeral system for labeling chords in a progression. There are plenty of free resources for that online. It will make transposing to different keys very easy and will help you recognize commonly occurring progressions.

Get "The Real Book" or lead sheets for songs you like and start applying Mickey's substitutions. You'll soon see that the chord progressions Baker is showing you occur in song after song. Application is the key to all of this.

It looks like an overwhelming amount of things to learn right now. Just work through the book and little by little all these things will become clear. Don't try to understand everything at once. Hearing and recognizing progressions is far more important than understanding them at an intellectual level.

[Hardscrabble]

I'd say yes to all of the above, but all this stuff will come to you gradually as you work thru the book.

One thing I'd suggest is that you learn the Roman numeral system for labeling chords in a progression. There are plenty of free resources for that online. It will make transposing to different keys very easy and will help you recognize commonly occurring progressions.

Get "The Real Book" or lead sheets for songs you like and start applying Mickey's substitutions. You'll soon see that the chord progressions Baker is showing you occur in song after song. Application is the key to all of this.

It looks like an overwhelming amount of things to learn right now. Just work through the book and little by little all these things will become clear. Don't try to understand everything at once. Hearing and recognizing progressions is far more important than understanding them at an intellectual level.

Thanks and makes complete sense and I am familiar with the number system from (gasp) my background in bluegrass, I'll start incorporating that into the chord patterns. I'll follow this approach, and I have been working out of the realbook learning standards before starting the book.

Maybe this is another thing that I will understand as I work through and not worth worrying about, but how small a section might I splice over a standard (individual chords, two chord phrases, the whole progression etc.), meaning are the substitutions often dictated by leading tones into the next chord- so use these substitutions in lesson 4 or 5 in instances where the progression is very similar only and 'complete' or, maybe another way to ask this is would it be counterproductive (to take the first example in lesson 4) to start just substituting over two bars of G (or whatever the I chord is) whenever it comes up a half bar each of G, Gma7, Gma6, Gma7, or only use those instances where the D7 (or dominant V- am i using these right?) follows as in the example, or only 'incorporate' when I see the whole progression.

Anyway I realize the point is to just start getting the progressions in my ear/ fingers but it will help me to understand how big the 'building blocks' are if that makes sense.

[rbcampbell1]

Does anyone know why Mickey uses a B7 run in bar 12 of the Blues Solo, Book 1, Lesson 36 (other than it sounds cool)? Is he using some convention (like the b5 sub convention) I'm not aware of or just his ears?

[Rob MacKillop]

It's the turnaround bar, which would normally head back to G6. Now, the notes of G6 are GBDE. If we put the E first: EGBD we have Em7, for which B7 is the dominant. Cool indeed!

Edit: Some people don't like spelling a 6 chord with the 5th included. So, for those sensitive souls, G6 = GBE. Put the E first and we have Em: EGB, for which B7 is the V7. Still works. Still cool.

[rbcampbell1]

It's the turnaround bar, which would normally head back to G6. Now, the notes of G6 are GBDE. If we put the E first: EGBD we have Em7, for which B7 is the dominant. Cool indeed!

Edit: Some people don't like spelling a 6 chord with the 5th included. So, for those sensitive souls, G6 = GBE. Put the E first and we have Em: EGB, for which B7 is the V7. Still works. Still cool.

Nice! Thanks Rob.

[Jack E Blue]

Does anyone know why Mickey uses a B7 run in bar 12 of the Blues Solo, Book 1, Lesson 36 (other than it sounds cool)? Is he using some convention (like the b5 sub convention) I'm not aware of or just his ears?

I like Rob's explanation that it's the V of the vi and the vi is a sub for the I. There's yet another way to look at it: I have a note in my book that the notes in that measure equal a D13b9. As a person who doesn't know much music theory I'm constantly amazed at how seemingly unrelated chords are actually related to each other.

[Rob MacKillop]

Both explanations are right, but yours is better as it functions as the V of G. But sometimes it helps to see weird extended chords as simple major or minor triads.

[Jack E Blue]

Both explanations are right, but yours is better as it functions as the V of G. But sometimes it helps to see word extended chords as simple major or minor triads.

I'm beginning to appreciate that the more ways one can see these relationships the more they can be understood.

[rbcampbell1]

I like Rob's explanation that it's the V of the vi and the vi is a sub for the I. There's yet another way to look at it: I have a note in my book that the notes in that measure equal a D13b9. As a person who doesn't know much music theory I'm constantly amazed at how seemingly unrelated chords are actually related to each other.

Thanks Jack. So Mickey's B7 run goes B-D#(Eb)-F#-A-C-B, which spells 1-3-5-b7-b9-1 of a B7(b9) chord, but also 13-b9-3-5-b7-13 of a D13b9 chord. I'm loving both the simplicity of Rob's explanation and the complexity of yours!

[Jack E Blue]

Thanks Jack. So Mickey's B7 run goes B-D#(Eb)-F#-A-C-B, which spells 1-3-5-b7-b9-1 of a B7(b9) chord, but also 13-b9-3-5-b7-13 of a D13b9 chord. I'm loving both the simplicity of Rob's explanation and the complexity of yours!

I'm not smart enough to give simple answers.

[rbcampbell1]

I'm beginning to appreciate that the more ways one can see these relationships the more they can be understood.

I checked out some Barry Harris things awhile back and had another look at them again today. According to Barry, chords that are a minor third apart are related (he calls them 'brothers and sisters'). Mickey calls this a symmetric cycle in Lesson 14 of Book 2. So moving in minor thirds from D7 gets D7, F7, Ab7 (b5 sub) and, voila, B7! (please excuse my French )

[Rob MacKillop]

Regarding that minor 3rd shift: a V7b9 chord without the root (G)BDFAb - G7b9 - has a diminished 7th chord on top: BDFAb. You probably are aware that diminished 7th chords repeat every three frets. So, it's the same thing.

[rbcampbell1]

Regarding that minor 3rd shift: a V7b9 chord without the root (G)BDFAb - G7b9 - has a diminished 7th chord on top: BDFAb. You probably are aware that diminished 7th chords repeat every three frets. So, it's the same thing.

Yes, so cool! I think the minor 3rd shift idea is also useful, at least for me, to get a handle on Mickey's 'Cmi run over D7' habit (Blues no. 2, Lesson 31, Run Connections, Lesson 35 etc.). Mickey often uses an Ami run over D7. Applying the minor third shift to Ami gets Ami (important minor of D7), Cmi (Mickey's fav sub), Ebmi (Altered dominant sub) and F#mi (important minor of B7 - B7 sounds better to me) as a family of minor subs for D7. Again, I learned the 'important minor' concept from Barry Harris. As you can see, it's the minor chord built from the 5th of a dominant chord. Like Mickey, Barry views the 'important minor' as being interchangeable with it's dominant.

[Jack E Blue]

Yes, so cool! I think the minor 3rd shift idea is also useful, at least for me, to get a handle on Mickey's 'Cmi run over D7' habit (Blues no. 2, Lesson 31, Run Connections, Lesson 35 etc.). Mickey often uses an Ami run over D7. Applying the minor third shift to Ami gets Ami (important minor of D7), Cmi (Mickey's fav sub), Ebmi (Altered dominant sub) and F#mi (important minor of B7 - B7 sounds better to me) as a family of minor subs for D7. Again, I learned the 'important minor' concept from Barry Harris. As you can see, it's the minor chord built from the 5th of a dominant chord. Like Mickey, Barry views the 'important minor' as being interchangeable with it's dominant.

Interesting observations. Yet so many dismiss Mickey Baker's book because it's "outdated" and he wasn't a "Jazz" guitarist.

[rbcampbell1]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this but, for anyone who's starting out with Mickey's book and is having trouble getting going, I'd suggest having a look at "Guitar Roots: Swing" by Paul Howard as an excellent primer/companion. Paul's book is laid out the same way as Mickey's, with a rhythm section followed by a soloing section. Unlike Mickey, Paul focuses mainly on 3-note 'rhythm voicings' in his rhythm section which makes it easier to get started IMO. Paul's soloing approach is exactly the same as Mickey's - he gets you to practice a bunch of runs (many taken directly from Mickey's book???) and then shows you how to apply them over a few choruses of blues, rhythm changes and a standard. Paul's book has more theory than Mickey's, if that's appealing, but its big plus I think is that it comes with a CD which includes demonstrations of all the comps, runs and solos as well as play-along tracks for practice.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the runs and solos are written in TAB as well as standard notation.

[Rob MacKillop]

I saw that book. It's very good, despite the goofy cover.

[georgebanketas]

Hello Everyone,
I am in book 1 lesson 2. Could someone please look over my work for the 4th line, where chords 2,3,4 and 5 are combined?
Following Mickey's progression this is what I get :
|| Gmaj7 Gmaj6 | Ami7 Ami6 |
Abmaj7 Abmaj6 | Bbmi7 Bbmi6 |
Amaj7 Amaj6 | Bmi7 Bmi6 |
Bbmaj7 Bbmaj6 | Cmi7 Cmi6 |
Bmaj7 Bmaj6 | Dbmi7 Dbmi6 |
Cmaj7 Cmaj6 | Dmi7 Dmi6 ||

Thanks in advance!
George