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  1. #51
    Hi Sundeep,

    Glad to hear that you're enjoying Mickey's course and making progress.

    RE: Form 12. Form 12 (for those reading that might not have Mickey's book) is a Major 6/Minor 7 for for the 1st 4 strings. I have to admit when I was first taught that chord in 1971, using Mickey's fingering I had a devil of a time with it, until one day it clicked. The reason that fingering is useful is because that frees the pinkie to grab the note two frets higher on the 1st string, which will be called a Form 30 "11" chord in Lesson 14. If you just can't get it whatsoever by barring with your 2nd finger, try fingering it with your 1st finger in the 4th string, 2nd finger on the 2nd string, 3rd finger on the 1st string, and 4th finger on the 3rd string. That alternative fingering is useful in some chord progressions so you'll probably learn it anyway. But Mickey's fingering has some advantages that are well worth the effort.

    Good luck on progressing with it.

    Best regards,
    Mike

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banksia View Post
    Fast Eddy you read too fast! You missed the line that said "from the 1955 catalog" I think the closest thing they make these days is the Country Club. I don't know if these prices are $US or $Canadian:

    Buy Gretsch Guitars BLEM G6192 Country Club | Semi-Hollow and Hollow Body Electric Guitars | Musician's Friend
    I must have got over excited and skipped that bit. 1955 catalog - heavy bummer. Better get saving

  4. #53

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    Hello cats, when I learnt about the Mickey Baker's method, I ordered my copy straight away. Apparently you're supposed to learn a few things about substituting chords which shows when you go as far as lesson 3 I think it is. Anyway, when you check its first progression, Mickey substitutes his
    G | Gdim | Am D7

    with

    Gmaj7 Gmaj6 | B-7 Bb-7 | Am-7 D13b5b9

    But I don't really understand why you can sub your diminished I chord with B-7 and Bb-7 in this case.

  5. #54

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    It sounds good, isn't it ?

    Sorry, I have no explanation for that.
    Ibanez AF125 AMB is a nice guitar. I feel better everyday !

  6. #55

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    I did a quick video to try to explain this point. I don't know how helpful it is. I also forgot to mention that, once you sub the Bm7 for your Gmaj then the Bbm7 can also be seen as a passing tone to Am7


  7. #56
    Hi Dennis,

    That was an interesting question. First of all, I think you meant to say in measures it was B min7 - Bb min7 rather than B7 - Bb7.

    If you have the opportunity, you might want to go to a website where I've put all of Mickey's lessons into a computerized music notation program called TablEdit. This not only lets you print it out, but listen to a MIDI playback on the computer. In these lessons I've added some notes I've made when I went through the course, plus a little additional material to reinforce these ideas. That website is at < Mickey Baker >

    Read the notes I wrote in Lesson 4. What Mickey is substituting is not a B min7 for a G dim (7) chord (that is, a chord for a chord), but rather a more active "turn around" for a less active turn around. The formal name for a turn around is "Cadence", and just means a short phrase like I - V - I, or I - IV - iv - I. But I seem to hear "turn around" much more commonly used, especially among the musicians I know. Many tunes of say 32 measures are built from 2 measure turn arounds. The theory of substituting turn arounds is to start roughly at the same place, in your example, G or tonic harmony and end on V or V7 harmony (D7), and make the transition interesting. In that particular sequence, there are 4 measures that are basically I - V harmony or a I - V turnaround. It turns around because the next measure returns to I harmony. They both start and stop on the same harmony. And, they sound OK together because one part is going up (G - G dim - A min - D7) and the other part is coming down B min7 - Bb min7 - A min7 etc. J. S. Bach spent his lifetime just doing that: one line going up against another going down (well, in an extemely simplified example.)

    Note that using TablEdit to listen to Lesson 3, I made the parts in stereo: The standard will be coming out of one speaker, and the New will becoming out of the other. This way you can hear not only the difference but how the Old and New sound played together. That's not so easy to do if you're alone in your living room going through the course. You can make up your own mind as to whether the substitute turn around sounds good both stand alone and played against the standard turn around.

    Also, there are times you might decide to use a simple or the standard turn around instead of a more active one.

    In writing this I've tried to avoid using words like "better". You'll keep adding turn arounds to your bag of tricks to give more variety to your music. To me that's what Jazz is all about: variety.

    I hope this helps. It's just my opinions. With 7 billion of us on this planet, there's a lot of opinions and this is just mine!

    Good luck and enjoy Mickey's course. It's a jewel.

    Best regards,
    Mike

    Mickey Baker

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by manu68 View Post
    It sounds good, isn't it ?

    Sorry, I have no explanation for that.
    It sure does!


    And thanks Banksia and Michael, both your replies have made the answer more than clear!

    Your Mickey Baker site is fantastic Michael, I've been using it since I started learning from his method book.

  9. #58

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    Mike,

    The Tabledit work is great.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  10. #59

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    The way I think of this is: B-7 is a sub for GMaj7 and the Bb-7 keeps a nice bass movement as a parallel passing chord. This is often used by guitarists to provide a more interesting voicing movement of the chords. Your ear will tell you if the chords sound good.

    wiz
    Howie

  11. #60
    rodan Guest
    I'm currently using Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar - Book 1 that belong to my Dad.I think he bought in the sisties for it's kinda falling apart.I probably should go out and buy both books new , for the price and what you get out of them.I'm still on lesson 2.

    Rodan

  12. #61

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    is the book available on amazon?

  13. #62
    rodan Guest

  14. #63

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    Hey everybody! I am new to the forum. I have a couple of jazz books, both by Jody Fisher, great books, but was wondering, does Mickey cover improvisation in any of the two books? I was also wondering since I am not a COMPLETE beginner (know how to bulid chords, can read music, know the theory, but can't make jazzy improvs to save my life) but a beginner nonetheless in the world of jazz, should I pick up this guitar method. Any suggestions?

  15. #64

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    Welcome to the site silvatm! Many people would consider Mickey's improvisational approach fairly dated and limited.(of course this all depends on what you want to play) There must be 100 method books out there, so the first questions are:
    - What standard are you at now? Name a couple of songs that you can play comfortably - any genre.
    - Which jazz players do you like? There are method books by Pass, Metheny, Holdsworth, McLaughlin etc.
    - What's your goal? If you want to be a pro, then definitely you need something deeper than Mickey Baker (no disrespect to MB. I started on MB and I'm forever grateful) If you just want to play some nice tunes tunes at home then perhaps the Barry Galbraith Chord Melodies might be a good book, since you already have the basics.

    If you give us some info, we can target suggestions better.

  16. #65

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    To be honest I am not much of a song learner (most songs I learned back in the day I forget) and most of the songs I know are from the rock idiom (zeppelin, pink floyd, rush, porcupine tree etc). I do know night in tunisia. I like all jazz players but some that have stuck out to me are Wes, Pat Metheny, Kenny Burrell, Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, John Pizzarelli, paul chambers, bill evans, oscar peterson, lyle mays, jaco and the list goes on. My Goal is to become the absolute best player I can be, looking towards being a pro.
    Last edited by silvatm; 04-06-2009 at 12:36 PM.

  17. #66

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    If you aim to become a pro, talk to m78w or Jake O'Hanlon. They are both Music Academics at the tertiary level and they could tell you which texts they use in teaching.

    Coming from a rock background the easiest way to come in is via Kenny Burrell or the bluesier Herb Ellis albums. You can find a few tabs (with standard notation) for KB and Pass on 911tabs.com.

    I think Mickey is too elementary for where you're aiming. Holdsworth and McLaughlin are a bit "too individual" for starting points. I'd suggest something more generic. The Jody Fisher books are highly recommended (I've never used them but I've seen him play and if he could teach me that, I'd be happy)

    If you want something really deep, Bill Evans was a fan of the George Russell book "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation" and there's my old fall-back "Fundamentals of Musical Composition" by Arnold Schoenberg.

  18. #67

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    Thanks for your replies Banksia. What I feel I really need is a little push in the right direction towards improvisation. I know that learning tunes is the best way, but when I do that I learn the melody and the chord progression as two seperate things and its hard for me to relate the two because the harmony in the chords are so overwhelming. Its such a different world from rock and blues because I'm used to everything being in the same key for long periods of time where it seems in jazz I just stumble all over the place and lose myself.
    Last edited by silvatm; 04-07-2009 at 01:08 AM.

  19. #68

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    When I first tried to play jazz I used to play along with some fairly simple songs like old Billie Holiday stuff and some bluesy Burrell stuff. I ignored the theory and just tried to solo according to my ear. I didn't care what key or chords they were playing. If the line sounds right, it IS right. You can always find theory later to explain what you're doing.

    Another good exercise was playing along with albums that have no guitar on them. That way you have to write the guitar part. Two good ones for this are Kind of Blue by Miles and Head Hunters by Herbie Hancock. Both have long tracks which are merely tonal shells and the melodies are really just suggestions for soloing ideas. On the Herbie one you will hear him play over a chord pattern in four or five different modal approaches and they all work. Bitches Brew is a good album for this approach as well.

    In jazz you are allowed to "stumble all over the place and lose yourself." The real crime in jazz is when you don't try to do anything adventurous.

  20. #69

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    I have experienced a sort of religious conversion with this new book now. My new answer to all questions lies in two words: Garrison Fewell!!

  21. #70
    Hey, I'm new here and have been working with the Mickey Baker book and Michael Joyce's site. Very helpful in understanding the book.

    Hope to talk again.

    MJ

  22. #71

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    Who is Garrison Fewell?
    free wheels and a lot of those stuff
    time on another instrument

  23. #72

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    good for you
    but what are you understanding?
    any hints appreciated

  24. #73

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    religious conversation?
    explain to me a little bit more
    Gods on the instrument
    Sorry about me

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by franco6719 View Post
    I have experienced a sort of religious conversion with this new book now. My new answer to all questions lies in two words: Garrison Fewell!!
    Wasn't he Rocky Marciano's cut-man?

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by hubert54 View Post
    Who is Garrison Fewell?
    free wheels and a lot of those stuff
    time on another instrument

    Not a real "religious conversion". I was just using a common English figure of speech, of course.

    Garrison Fewell is a jazz guitarist and educator who used to teach at Berklee at one time. I didn't run into him while I was there, unfortunately. He seems like an outstanding teacher. Anyway, he has written several books on "Jazz Improvisation" and he is one of the the few people who have written about the subject who actually gives many clear examples of lines and then explains exactly WHY and HOW those lines work, how to construct them yourself and so on. His approach is based heavily on arppegios and guide tones. This is what I have been trying to focus on lately and it was kind of "the right book at the right time" sort of experience. I also find it helpful in making clear things that I had already kind of arrived at by intuition or listening and playing.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast eddy View Post
    Wasn't he Rocky Marciano's cut-man?
    That was Garrison KEWL.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by silvatm View Post
    Hey everybody! I am new to the forum. I have a couple of jazz books, both by Jody Fisher, great books, but was wondering, does Mickey cover improvisation in any of the two books? I was also wondering since I am not a COMPLETE beginner (know how to bulid chords, can read music, know the theory, but can't make jazzy improvs to save my life) but a beginner nonetheless in the world of jazz, should I pick up this guitar method. Any suggestions?
    I recommend the Mickey Baker Book #1 for you. You are not a complete guitar beginner so it will be much clearer what Baker is teaching.

    What is he teaching? Pretty much what you need to know if you want to play jazz guitar (not fusion) standards. He teaches chord substitution, improvising, intros, vamps, endings, licks, bridges, etc.

    It's a great book but you have to put the effort into it. Invest a week per lesson, practicing around 2 hours a day. It will take you at least a year to go through the book. The first 6 months is chords.
    If that seems like a lot of time remember you probably don't really know how to use them in jazz. that's the trick.

    This isn't a book on how to play fusion (which IMO is NOT jazz) or chord melody. Go elsewhere for that. There are excellent chord melodies on this site.

    Follow the book lesson by lesson. No shortcuts. I have many, many books and videos but Baker's book is a gem.
    Last edited by Drumbler; 04-12-2009 at 02:22 PM.

  29. #78

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    ok, I've two books from Mickey Baker
    But I don't know what he means with double time change or something like that. (a piece called "winterset")
    Anyway, I agree it's a challenge

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by hubert54 View Post
    ok, I've two books from Mickey Baker
    But I don't know what he means with double time change or something like that. (a piece called "winterset")
    Anyway, I agree it's a challenge
    Means to double your speed for example from 8th to 16th notes.

  31. #80

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    Mickey said :" The 2nd guitar plays chords in a quarter note rhythm up to the seventh system where it suddenly changes to an eighth note rhythm. The 1st guitar follows in the next measure creating the illusion
    that the tempo has suddenly doubled...
    This creates a nice "groove" and if you know how to do it, you can make a song really swing."

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by hubert54 View Post
    Mickey said :" The 2nd guitar plays chords in a quarter note rhythm up to the seventh system where it suddenly changes to an eighth note rhythm. The 1st guitar follows in the next measure creating the illusion
    that the tempo has suddenly doubled...
    This creates a nice "groove" and if you know how to do it, you can make a song really swing."
    You are learning some good stuff.

  33. #82

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    There is "double-time" and "double-time feel". They are two different things.

    Double time means that the tempo is actually cut in half. For example, from 4/4 you go to 2/2. In double-time feel, you stay in the same meter, but you play everything twice as fast. For example, you are still in 4/4 but the rhythm section starts playing eight-notes as 16th notes and so on. But the soloist may still continue playing along as if nothing had changed in the accompaniment (still in 4/4).

  34. #83

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    Hey hey, I'm taking my time going through this book as Baker suggests, but I'm a bit stuck on comping rhythms. Can anyone advise some variations aside from the standard charleston figure? Thanks.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisW View Post
    Hey hey, I'm taking my time going through this book as Baker suggests, but I'm a bit stuck on comping rhythms. Can anyone advise some variations aside from the standard charleston figure? Thanks.
    If you are able to play along with a backing of some sort (like Band-in-a-Box) just swing the rhythm. You don't have to play a strict cadence.

  36. #85

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    Yeah I know swinging is the way to go, but I need some help on how to make these progressions a little more interesting. What I'm actually asking is, how would you guys play these exercises?

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisW View Post
    Yeah I know swinging is the way to go, but I need some help on how to make these progressions a little more interesting. What I'm actually asking is, how would you guys play these exercises?
    Which exercise are you referring to?

    I usually just hit the bass note with my pick (or thumb) and claw the top notes with my fingers, or pinch all the notes, or strum, or arpeggiate the notes too.

    Baker says to be creative.

    I do try to follow the lesson however as regards to note durations so I do them as the lesson instructs to a great extent.
    Last edited by Drumbler; 05-23-2009 at 05:42 PM.

  38. #87

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    Well I'm not that far yet, so I'm talking about the earlier lessons which have pretty simple progressions.

  39. #88

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    Hey Dennis, I am currently on lesson 11 and i find playing with a drum backing track or metronome is a must.

    then you can do whatever you want with the chord rhythm- as long as you just come back on the one (for example)

    playing them arpeggio style is also a must....start slow

    and his string bass style is yet another must-

    also slide into each chord..ie f#maj7 into gmaj7

    just get a swinging drum track or band in the box thing and practice practice practice -

    one last mickey baker tip - when he says to transpose exercises to other keys - do it- it might seem tedious at one point but it helps so much if you practice it
    I love Baker book ...i do use other sources and have played for many years

  40. #89

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    Hello .
    A small record from lesson 3a.

    manu68’s Profile &#187; JazzMatrix.com

    I play sometime very relax, and don't respect all the time the tempo.
    (I am a pure jazz beginner , so I can't play like freddie green . I need time to change chords fluently)
    I play also sometimes the bass first, and the rest of the chord with fingers.

    I am always stuck at lesson 6 (no time for playing a lot). But I like these chords and I play them in all possible way. I think it is also a part of the method.
    Ibanez AF125 AMB is a nice guitar. I feel better everyday !

  41. #90

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    I finally survived the lesson 6
    After that, the lesson 7 and 8 are "easy". It means that after 9 months, i can reach the lesson 9
    It may be very bad, but I am a very bad player
    When I look back, it is just impossible that I can play some chords of this book. They seems to me all difficult.

    My family is crazy everytime I play these chords, but I wanted to be sure that I can play that (almost) fluently before going further.

    To make a small break, I have decided to work the lesson of "there will never be an other you". It seems difficult to me also. After that, I will begin to work on the lesson 9

    Fantastic method, very interesting, but very hard for me (no time to practise enough)
    Ibanez AF125 AMB is a nice guitar. I feel better everyday !

  42. #91

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    Those fabulous Baker Boys!, Mickey for chords and David for bebop improv? (vols 1, 2 and 3).

    You guys checked out the David Baker series? Now there's a series I'd love to hear as part of a software play along project!

  43. #92

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    I just got this book last week it's cool that someone is working on it at the same time I am. And yeah those 26 chords.. WOW
    It might take a while to get to lesson 2

  44. #93

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    Don't get hung up on a chapter too long. Keep pushing forward. You'll get plenty of practice playing the chords in subsequent lessons.

    There are just a few chapters that require a more extended stay.

  45. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Joyce View Post
    Hi Jazz Bug et al;

    I have been hosting a website called the "Advanced Guitar Study Group" which is based on Mickey's Vol 1. I'm releasing a lesson a week and I have just released Lesson 43 "Rhythm Changes". My role is as a moderator and fellow student, letting Mickey do all the teaching. As I am a fingerstyle guitarist, I've added some insight to help other fingerstylists without affecting what Mickey wrote for the plectrum artists. I have put the entire course, including transpositions to all the orchestra keys, into the TablEdit format. All you have to do is download and play along. Where Mickey asks for student participation, I have given my attempts as examples. It's all free, BTW.

    Mickey Baker

    Best regards and good luck,
    Mike Joyce
    Mike, your site is what I needed, nice setup.

  46. #95

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    How can i find the site. My name is george and i am intrested in hauing a guitar class.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Bug View Post
    Hopefully anyone that has this set of method books, or is interested in buying them will check in here.

    I received books 1&2 today. I plan on using this thread as a type of online blog, questions I have using the book, maybe something that I find helped me using the book. Anything, and everything.

    Hopefully more experienced players, or people who use the book can stop in and help when needed. I think this will be a great tool for any other beginners that come along like me...

    Ok, page one....

    26 chords to learn...ouch!...

    This is my first thought, all of this can be overwhelming!! How am I going to be able to do this?? I can tell you first thing, I have no clue...

    I'll start with the first chords, move on from there. I really want to play Jazz guitar. I have wanted to for a very long time, today I begin, come see me in a year....

    Joe
    Jazzbug,
    I have the original Mickey Baker book ($1.95). I credit 90% of what I know to this book. The Elders and well learned on this forum call each chord a "GRIP", so mulriply every chord you learn by 12 and the spooky 26 chords will vanish quickly...Good Luck with Mickey

  48. #97

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    I have been hanging out around this site for awhile, learning by reading. After going through this thread I bought all three of the Baker books on Amazon, and I'm just amazed by how much is in them, thin as they are. I'll be working on them for years! In 30+ years of playing there are a lot of things in there I use already, but still there is a lot of new that will keep my hands stretching. Whew!

  49. #98

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    I've had the Mickey Baker book since the 70's, misplaced it, bought a new one 3 years ago and still haven't been able to approach it. I have been playing rock, blues and country for 40 years and I guess I have a stigma about moving out of my comfort zone but maybe this thread will help me break through.

  50. #99

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    Glad theres someone else who can understand 'not enough time' great that you can keep up the practice manu68 Thankyou for your updates of success keeping yourself accountable! you've inspired me to get out of my no practice rut/apathy which im sure its just due to moving to a new city/house/job recently.
    I've just bought Mickey Bakers 'vol 1' which i used once two weeks ago and will have dedicated practice sessions again starting tonight -'tomorrow' just hasnt been working out for me due to sleeping in and watching crap tv (it really is).
    Did you sacrifice much to commit to pracitce?
    Have you still been building your repertiore with new songs?

    Ill probably run the book in tandem with my other recent purchase Jamey
    Abersolds improv vol 1 (which I spent a week regularly practicing 1 1/2 months ago).

    Finishing my sessions with noodling! practice just dosnt feel complete for me without being in the 'zone' it drives my wife crazy (not the good kind lol)
    Anyway thankyou and best of luck with your studies.

  51. #100

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    Thanks Elrond
    But I am not a good example regarding practise !
    To many things to do in the real life.
    I found personnally the lesson 6 very difficult. It took me months to go through.
    And now that I can play that complicated things almost easily, i feel stronger

    I am currently working on lesson 10.
    Only the result counts. slowly, but surely.

    I have to say that it is a little boring for my family to ear all the time only the same "good" mickey baker chords and style, because I belong to the people able to work on a small exercise for weeks if I like it. Crazy !! I can understand my family who would like to ear more "real music", so I have decided to work in parallel with two other books, and to learn real standards. I also play some folk,blues and rock songs on my epiphone/stratocaster (stones, beatles, U2, springsteen....).It brings some fun, and a more global approach, but I don't go really quick through the lessons.

    I have learned also my first standard , Autumn leaves. Not so original, but it has nice lyrics in french and I like it !! I have to choose the next one to learn !

    I bought the book "Swing and big band guitar, Four to the bar comping in the style of Freddie Green", from Charlton Johnson.
    From my point of view, this is a fantastic book. I like it very much.
    Of course it is very specialized in a style, but there is precious things to learn within. It is a very good complement to the mickey baker book because it explain very good how to reduce the chords. and it has backtracks on CD.

    The last book I am studying in a systematic way is the book
    "Jazz Rythm guitar ; A systematic approach to chord progression" from roger edison.
    This one is really close to mickey baker, but focus more on learning the I-V7-I, the ii-V7-Imaj7, and so on. Very progressive to learn the chords substitutions and so on. I didn't found the book on the net. So I had to print it from a .pdf

    If I can go through these three books, I am pretty sure that I will have a very good ground knowledge of jazz rythm guitar.

    It will take me 5 years or more, but after all it is not very important. I could play good jazz guitar for the 40 years left .
    The important thing for me is not what to play, it is just to play when I can.

    Last thing.
    It comes soon christmas, and it will bring me Band in a box and a looper (Jam4 from line 6). I am pretty sure that it will change my life of poor alone guitarist .
    I could play the mickey baker exercices with backtracks
    Ibanez AF125 AMB is a nice guitar. I feel better everyday !