Tunes, Scales, or Licks?

[JonnyPac]

Just some thoughts...

A lot of guitarist new to jazz post questions about what to focus on and practice. Many are learning scales, modes, and memorizing the stock jazz chord vocabulary (shells, drop voicings, barre chords, etc). They seem to come to a point where they are having trouble getting their playing to sound "jazzy" and cohesive.

The usual advise given here is TUNES TUNES TUNES! Which suggests that by clunking through heads and changes the student will magically pull all of the elements together. I've seen a lot of students get discouraged and hung up on tunes like ATTYA, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, 12 bar Blues, RC for years and never sound the way they want... I was one. It is frustrating as all heck. You just end up wondering "how do they do it?".

Now here's the catch... I too learned all my scales and chords and picked up the standard real books and started learning heads and memorizing the changes and so on. There are almost no "heads" that contain the vocabulary of "licks" or common jazz melodic motifs that soloists rely on so heavily, and many books contain outright wrong chords. For example, a tune like Maiden Voyage seems easy for beginners because the long durations of the chords, but "D7sus" is arguably a bad symbol for what is being played on the recording. C/D is a little more like it, and gives a clearer guide for melodic scale/outline choices, etc. New players may not be prepared to "correct" their real books as needed.

Transcriptions are the key to developing a good style in jazz, IMO. A little "nugget" from a great recorded solo can be pulled apart, transposed, inverted into something versatile and inspiring. Hearing the actual chords vs the book symbols is very revealing too.

Besides listening and transcribing licks and motifs, I strongly suggest learning stock melodic voice leading outlines and melodic embellishment devices. Again, these allow the player to build something big from a tiny kernel. Going with a glitzy approximation of a complete "jazzy" solo is too unfocused and distracts from the deeper level of detail which ultimately makes a good jazz solo. Work small and build big.

Anyway... these are just some observations and thoughts from my experience. They are meant to help those having trouble getting started. There are as many opinions as there are a-holes. I'm not trying to create a big debate here... Please add your views and other helpful tips for those in need.

[Kman]

I think the best thing for new jazz players is to learn right away from recordings. For example Wes heard Charlie Christian and started learning the Christian solos right away. Many rock players do the same. They hear their favorite rock guitar player and feel compelled to learn their stuff. They are inspired to imitate, so I would say that is the most important thing to begin with IMO.

[chasgrav]

That works for me. I've read many of the threads that cover this ground, and have been struggling myself to move from folk/blues/ragtime into the jazz world.

I tend to work on jazz licks, tunes and improvisation to avoid getting bored, but also carve out time for scales, modes, chord construction and other theory. Depending on my mood and energy level on a particular day, I might lean more in one direction than the other. My only objective is to keep the fun in it.

And after all the hoopla, I think that's what Conti, Bruno et. al. are really saying.

[djangoles]

Transcriptions are the key to developing a good style in jazz, IMO. A little "nugget" from a great recorded solo can be pulled apart, transposed, inverted into something versatile and inspiring. Hearing the actual chords vs the book symbols is very revealing too.

Transcribing and learning from it by picking it apart, playing variations, etc is really important. It's the only "fast track" I know to learning how to play this music. I was never a huge transcriber until recently (about 2 months ago)....but what I've learned in these past 2 months has surpassed years of struggling with Real Book noodling....oh and you can get some pretty big ears also!!!

[whatswisdom]

I think it's very important that you are comfortable with changes, scales and arpeggios. I had a hard time some years back because I was not able to handle certain progressions, e.g.
Cminor > CminMaj7 > Cmin7 >Cmin6 (root on 5th string). (I still work on that one.) It's no fun if you're struggling with stretches or other fingering problems. I did a lot of work on strength and dexterity and it has really helped. It's surprising how easier it is to focus on the music if you're free of physical distractions. Knowing the name of every note on the fingerboard is important. Every day I begin by playing the chromatic scale several times in both directions, through the entire range of the guitar, and name each note as I play. Tune suggestion: Have a go at putting on "So What" and see if you can pick out the outline of Miles' solo. Sing along with the melody too--even as you play.

[whatswisdom]

Any help with getting started transcribing appreciated. Tricks of the trade, etc. Thanks.

[JonnyPac]

Press PAUSE a lot!

You can get programs to slow down recordings too. There are also printed transcriptions available to study.

Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony by Bert Ligon has a great collection of excerpts and analysis. It helped me a lot.

[mr. beaumont]

I still maintain tunes are the way to go. I also don't think you really learn a tune by getting a Real Book chart and playing some chords and reading a melody.

Really learning a tune requires some immersion. Look at the way different players play the head. Transcribe some things you hear. Learn the chords inside out. Listen more.

Tunes give all the hard work context. Maybe it's a cop out answer, because it encompasses al the other stuff, but that's my take on it.


As for starting on transcribing, heads of tunes are the easiest place to start--plus, they automatically give you a good look at what good phrasing sounds like.

[djangoles]

Any help with getting started transcribing appreciated. Tricks of the trade, etc. Thanks.

Do one bar at a time, slow it down if you have to, your ears will get better as you do more. Learn to sing the line and tap or pick out the rhythm muted before you play it or write it. Finish one chorus and then really work on it slowly before moving on.

Be able to play it so it swings without anything behind it including a metronome, even at a slower tempo. This is a step that I never really did until recently, and something that shouldn't be overlooked. (I have a book full of stuff that I transcribed years ago, some Johnny Smith, George Benson, Django, etc....and I honestly could never play any of it at tempo because I didn't learn it slow first.) After that learn it in as many positions that make sense to you, then transpose to some other keys. One other thing that I try to do is learn a harmony line from the original....you can get two or three more usable lines that will work if you do this. That should be enough for a few years if not a lifetime of work.

[kenbennett]

Any help with getting started transcribing appreciated. Tricks of the trade, etc. Thanks.

Check this out. It's Express Scribe, an audio transcription software program. Free. It plays videos too. You can slow it down without changing the pitch. You can even get foot pedals to control it, so your hands stay working.

I got it for transcribing text, you know, typing up some recorded lecture or whatever (You can get paid to do that). But there's no reason it wouldn't work for learning music too.

You could get this and a free copy of Finale Notepad and write out the notation as you go.

You can get paid for transcribing music too. I applied to one of those online guitar lesson sites, had to take a test. They said I was one of three applicants that got all the notes right, but they gave the job to one of the other guys.

[JonnyPac]

Also don't be too guitar bias. Some of the best solos in jazz are horn and piano. Learn from Bird, Miles, Horace Silver, Clifford Brown, Sonny Rollins, etc.

I learned my favorite voicings from Bill Evan's left hand. LH piano viocings are really nice if you can work them onto the fretboard as "grips".

[bass2man]

Hey JonnyPac:

As usual, all great ideas from everyone...To learn jazz is more than just scales, arps,chord tones etc...it is a language/groove/phrasing that makes it jazzy..

You just have to immerse yourself in the jazz language by LISTENING to a lot of jazz...and you are right, don't be guitar centric...

When there is a new standard I want to learn, the first place I go for the melody is who sang it? Sinatra, Ella,Sarah Vaughn,Joe Williams, Tony Bennett...heck, Fred Astaire covered everything from Berlin to Arlen to Gershwin...

For soloing ideas on this stuff...Oscar Peterson..little bit o blues in everything he plays...

Sort of tough to come up with something musical in the jazz vein in your playing if you don't have the language and feel ingrained in your head..IMHO

[Drumbler]

Really learning a tune requires some immersion.

This is a key.

[guitaroscar]

Way back in'92 I attended a clinic held by a lot of jazz big shot, and deservedly so. John Clayton, John Stowell, Bobby Shew and others. The best advice I took home was this, and i forgrt who said it: If you take 12 good solos from diverse artists, Charlie Parker, Miles, Don Cherry, Stan Getz etc, and learn them. Don't slow then down. Learn them at full speed, cause this is how they were played.
If you do this you will never need to attend the music conservatorium, your ears will be so s##t hot that you will knock em dead over any changes. It is all about ear training , and more ear training. Once your ears are there, they will be waiting for you. Think about it, we can al hum the ideal solo, the perfect line, now get it into your horn!

[Drumbler]

Think about it, we can all hum the ideal solo, the perfect line, now get it into your horn!

Simple.

[Open_Tuna]

Scales, in and of themselves, are pretty meaningless.

They are typically taught/played in a chromatic order with each note getting the same time value.

That's not music.

Of course, tunes, licks, riffs. etc. are where its at. Scales really only mean something when you look at a tune with respect to a scale. A yardstick has no purpose by itself; the thing you are measuring "has the essence."

But what do I know?
I'm a singer, not an instrumentalist.

[GodinFan]

Scales, in and of themselves, are pretty meaningless.

They are typically taught/played in a chromatic order with each note getting the same time value.

That's not music.

Of course, tunes, licks, riffs. etc. are where its at. Scales really only mean something when you look at a tune with respect to a scale. A yardstick has no purpose by itself; the thing you are measuring "has the essence."

But what do I know?
I'm a singer, not an instrumentalist.

Scales=alphabet.

All the chords, lines, everything else are within the scales.

I like the way Jimmy Bruno teaches it - you learn your major scales up and down the neck, in all keys. You learn simple three note shell chord voicings, and then start working on creating lines by learning how to make the minor 7th, major 7th and dominant 7th arpeggios.

[JohnRoss]

I still maintain tunes are the way to go.

But Jonny Pac has a good point - you won't learn how to solo by learning tunes. Soloing is judiciously combining arps, runs, licks, riffs, ornaments, and that's basically just note pitches, then there are rhythms and rhythmic devices, expression, dynamics, interaction with the other musicians, and God knows what else, in short, an awful lot of stuff, most of which you won't find in the head, however hard you look. It's the old language thing, trying to learn how to solo from the tunes is like speaking constantly in a foreign language, expecting to learn how to read a newspaper that way. No, you learn how to speak speaking, hear listening, read reading and write writing, and you learn how to solo soloing.

[monk]

I agree with Jon Ross' statement that "you learn to solo by soloing".

But you have to have a framework on which to solo and that framework is songs. The better one knows the harmonic and melodic structure of a song , the better one can employ the tools they have to create a solo. Unlike the riddle of the chicken and the egg, we know the song came first.
Regards,
monk

[JonnyPac]

Understanding a framework is essential, yes, but so is basic theory, scales, chords and the rest of the technical stuff. The toughest stuff is in the delivery of a well developed solo... no matter how well you understand the progression, your solo says more. You can know all that stuff without touching your axe even.

For example, I understand Giants Steps's framework inside and out, but I can't play it at 280+BPM like 'Trane to save my life. I have to play it at 200 BPM or slower to actually deliver a well developed solo that expresses personal ideas (not just fall-back patterns).

Edit: also note that the written melody to GS won't save your ass!!

[JonnyPac]

Think about it, we can al hum the ideal solo, the perfect line, now get it into your horn!

On Humming... I like to scat over tunes while I drive, etc. It's way to practice durring a busy day... however, I like to play lines and intervals on the guitar that are impossible to sing. There really is a vocal speed limit... I've taken voice classes, etc. Busting a 2+ octave run with chromatic notes and frequent use of P4 intervals is nearly impossible. I think we can agree that the humming is really just our internal ear/voice, not the literal voice. Bud Powell and others are known for muttering while playing, and it's not pretty like George Benson...

[mr. beaumont]

But Jonny Pac has a good point - you won't learn how to solo by learning tunes. Soloing is judiciously combining arps, runs, licks, riffs, ornaments, and that's basically just note pitches, then there are rhythms and rhythmic devices, expression, dynamics, interaction with the other musicians, and God knows what else, in short, an awful lot of stuff, most of which you won't find in the head, however hard you look. It's the old language thing, trying to learn how to solo from the tunes is like speaking constantly in a foreign language, expecting to learn how to read a newspaper that way. No, you learn how to speak speaking, hear listening, read reading and write writing, and you learn how to solo soloing.

I agree--but I also think you learn to solo by viewing the whole framework. You learn to understand the structure, and how a solo is a part of a greater whole--a song.

In jazz, I don't think you know a song until you can play the head, comp interestingly, and solo on it. So yes, my cop-out catch all answer is still tunes!

[Open_Tuna]

On Humming... I like to scat over tunes while I drive, etc. It's way to practice durring a busy day... however, I like to play lines and intervals on the guitar that are impossible to sing. There really is a vocal speed limit... I've taken voice classes, etc. Busting a 2+ octave run with chromatic notes and frequent use of P4 intervals is nearly impossible. I think we can agree that the humming is really just our internal ear/voice, not the literal voice. Bud Powell and others are known for muttering while playing, and it's not pretty like George Benson...

To me, if you (or someone else) can't hum it, it's too fast.

Then again, I always wanted to write memorable tunes, not be a "fast guitar player."

[Kman]

It would be nice if we could experiment. Take a player who is new to jazz and lock him in a room for a year with just a real book and take another guy and lock him in a room with Wes Mongomery recordings.

[max_power]

I think there's a bit of miscommunication here. No one is actually implying that simply learning the chord progression and melody of a tune will turn you into a great jazz player. The idea is that scales, arpeggios, chord voicings, etc don't really mean anything on their own - they're only useful once they're applied to tunes. Many bedroom guitar players practice scales until they're blue in the face, but they couldn't play a song all the way through to save their lives.

Plus, to me, you don't really "know" a tune unless you'd be comfortable playing it at a jam session. That means you need to be able to solo, well, over the form - which means you've got to know your arpeggios, scales, licks, etc. Tunes are the gateway between practice and performance.