-
How long did it take for some of you out there where you could arrive at a situation that all the relevant chords and their inversions (let's just say, M, m, dom), in all 12 keys, together with associated scales and related fingerings became second nature to you from a technical standpoint, with regard to the fingerboard?
By "second nature", you could effortlessly transfer one fingering to another without thinking, stumbling, and fumbling, or even going out for a beer/coffee break? So, the instrument becomes second nature and all you have to do is work on the music.
How many years of endless repetition in the practice area to the point where the fingerboard became a natural extension of your musical person, like a second skin? Or, as Barney Kessel once put it, like a "comfortable pair of house slippers"?
3-4 years?
Just wondering.
-
01-16-2011 12:40 PM
-
That's a tough question for me to answer. Probably because I've been playing for almost three decades and my memory gets a little fuzzy if I go back too far.
It all came together bit-by-bit through learning songs. For example, most of my inversions I learned while arranging chord-melody solos, as I didn't sit down & learn each inversion during practice sessions (imo that sounds like an incredibly dull way to go about it). As far as "relevant" chords, I think you'll always find new uses for old grips.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that most of my knowledge came about through songs and then I would apply various technical challenges or new knowledge to my practice. Something would come up in a song, and then I'd learn how to play it everywhere -- or seek out songs that had the new stuff.
Most things for me are second nature, but I still find things to work on.
-
I've been playing for decades and still don't qualify as a "master" in my book ... It's a life-long endeavor, isn't it?
-
I would not say I've mastered it, but I am at the point where I do instantly get a lot of usable info everytime the chord changes-- the fretboard kinda "lights up," y'know?
I keep getting more options the more I work, but i'd say it took me 5-6 years to get to the point of where I knew I had enough knowledge stored up for instant recall that I could get a chart and pretty much give a tune a go with no previous knowledge of the structure...
-
I would say the same for myself. All I can say for me things came in clumps then plateaus sometime for a long time. Then suddenly old things I did made more sense and new things glued old stuff together. One of the great things about playing Jazz is its a lifelong learning experience.
Originally Posted by M-ster
-
I am no virtuoso monster, but the things I play live are pretty comfortable, and I can express myself without over-thinking the details. It usually comes in a two-part learning experience for me. 1. Understanding the theory 2. muscle memory/visual associations, etc.
I have timed how long it takes me to integrate new voicings/patterns, for example; I learn a shape/use and then about a month later it starts showing up naturally in my playing. Just go over the new material a few minutes every day. You can't cram like school before a test, it comes over time (based on the repetition of thought+action). That's my cycle. I have gotten much better at jazz in the last 2-5 years than ever before based on my focus and productive practice efforts. I put in some 20-30 hour weeks and then leveled off with 1-3 hr per day or so.
-
there's wisdom in all of these answers ........
I don't belive you ever 'get there'
the place where you can then start
concentrating on the music
learn directly off the tunes .....
The tunes show you the harmony ,
the lines and notes that work and don't work to your ears are correct for you in different harmonic situations .... and its cumulative learning
and (importantly) its fun .... its got to be fun or you wont practise anyway
and if its fun then its not work
just take care to take lots of breaks too !
and its actually music you're making
Playing around with Ladybird at the moment
and trying to get a nice chord melody going of
Here's that rainy day
I bet if you asked Pat Metheny or Scof if the were content with their fretboard knowledge they'd say "no way man"
I don't think you ever get 'there'
there is no 'there'
-
un saludo para todos los seres que llevamos por dentro la música que nos hace vivir y así con ello transmitir el mensaje del Amor!!!!!!!!!
-
Translated:
greetings to all the beings that we have inside the music and makes us live and thus the message of Love!!!!
-
Thanks all for the excellent comments. For sure music is a LIFELONG endeavor. I was perhaps more speaking to the issue when we really know our way around the instrument without struggle (Jimmy Bruno once said practiced 8-10 hours a day for 10 years straight as a kid
)
-
Hello. I cant really get what you are saying here. How can i practice fingering on the fret board? Sometimes it gets board, almost repeating what i do before.
-
A notes
5 0 X X X X lower octave
17 12 7 2 X X lower middle octave
X X 19 14 10 5 upper middle octave
X X X X (22) 17 upper octave
How long would it take to memorize this? Multiply that by 12 and subtract something because the process gets progressively easier as you go.
That is just the rote memorization of note location.
Not a bad start.
More important is absorbing the fingerboard architecture of octaves and unisons.
Unisons
5 frets
4 frets (G-B only)
Octaves
12 frets same string
7 frets adjacent strings // 8 frets G-B only
2 frets E-D and A-G // 3 frets D-B and G-E
3 frets E-G // 2 frets A-B and D-E
2 octaves
Same fret E-E
5 frets E-B and A-E
9 frets E-G // 10 frets A-B and D-E
If you know anything then you can transfer it to unisons and octaves.
If you know one position well then you can understand how and where the unisons and octaves reoccur elsewhere.
Shapes and fingerings, sound, interval knowledge, rote location are elements that interact in knowing the fingerboard well.
Understanding harmonic relationships and note collections is also important.
The short answer is it takes some time but fingerboard knowledge is a fundamental building block to guitar fluency.
-
Hard to say, I'm not a master of the fretboard yet.
I've been working pretty diligently on drop-2s for the past 18 months. All string sets, all inversions, all keys, for m7, M7, dom7, m7b5, dim7, aug7. Most of them are fairhly incorporated by now when I play, but I still seem to fall back on a few well-worn versions when comping. I've been working a lot on chord-melodies lately, which forces me out of my comfort zone.
This stuff comes very slowly for me.
-
What's not discussed in this thread are the alternative paths to fretboard mastery. By that I mean making the fretboard adapt to you by tuning the guitar with a symmetrical system.
A lot of the difficulty inherent in learning the fretboard is due to the weird artifacts created by standard tuning. A symmetrical 3rds, 4ths, or 5ths tuning system makes a lot of those problems go away by reducing the licks and chord forms to be memorized by 2/3rds. Voila! Almost instant guitar mastery
Unfortunately music mastery is another matter entirely. So time spent on fretboard mastery should be minimized to more time could be spent learning music.
-
I don't think you have to know everything, just what you need.
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
I can do that with Dom7 chords, Minor7 chords, Maj7 chords, all keys. Scales and chords anywhere on the neck - Aolian, Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian (and the other church modes that I don't use as much).
But I don't think that's anywhere near "fretboard mastery".
I'm now trying to learn the 'altered scale' in all keys and position while relating it to the Dom 7 chord (not the melodic minor chord).
And more speed is another area I need to improve on.
And changing from scale to scale or key to key quickly and musically, another area I need to improve on.
And to really swing...
There is so much more for me to learn.Last edited by fep; 01-18-2011 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
Ben Webster
Today, 02:23 PM in The Players