Modal Jazz

**fefe** · 01-10-2011, 11:00 PM

Hi All, first of all i am sorry for asking such a silly question..

I am a beginner, enjoying jazz, been studying jazz guitar for about a year (played classical before), and i need some directions about this modal vs diatonic progression based jazz music. In my knowledge the basic difference between the two is the tonality/progression, but how do you approach to play along/improvise in a modal jazz tune?I am a beginner, and have been trying to improvise over a limited number of standard tunes known as diatonic based (ATTYA, blue bossa). Do you have any suggestion for a standard that i should try as a beginner to get my feet wet on modal jazz progression? Appreciate your insights...thanks

**cosmic gumbo** · 01-11-2011, 05:37 AM

Listen to Kind of Blue for a major dose of modal.

**kris** · 01-11-2011, 06:00 AM

Miles Davis" Kind Of Blue" is a great example of modal playing!!!

Try to find good video educational material about modal playing.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-11-2011, 10:01 AM

And don't forget "maiden voyage"

**billkath** · 01-11-2011, 10:58 AM

**fefe** · 01-11-2011, 08:43 PM

Thanks you everyone...i will find that records..and hopefully be able to get the feel of this modal jazz..

**JonnyPac** · 01-11-2011, 11:36 PM

I love modal jazz. there are lots of great modal records from the 60's. I hope you get hooked. Good luck!

**fefe** · 01-20-2011, 09:35 PM

Jonny, thanks for the video, nice playin...made me think that i still have way too much to learn

... i am wondering how did you manage to create tension-release on a static modal vamp?was it an alter dom - tonic thing?... again thank you for the video post...it opens up my mind

**JonnyPac** · 01-20-2011, 09:50 PM

Thanks!

It was just the mode at hand in each. I used a D Dorian to walk 1/4's in the first part, played some "modal voicings" (just neat little stacks of modal intervals), then I'd just run some 8th notes and octaves. I did that with each example, pretty much. There does not need to be any alt dom/tonic to create the moving sound. Some scales like the WH Dim just sound tense as is. The final C to Eb part also had no dominants as well. Phrasing helps too.

I suggest just setting up a vamp and tying each note out over it. "Make friends" with each sound you create. Modal vamp playing is super relaxing. It's my favorite stuff. Let me know if you have more questions. I'm happy to chat. Thanks again.

**Aristotle** · 01-20-2011, 10:55 PM

fefe,
You might try these three things.

1. Just to get used to mode sounds...What I used to do on my classical to practice indepdence between the thumb and fingers was to play, for example an A bass as whole notes, then play modes with A on top, changing from quater note scales with the the RH fingers, then eighth notes, then in scale patterns and syncopations (change RH fingers a only, ai, etc). When you run out of modes because you have only three useful open string bass notes, you can retune your bass string by a half step, practice modes containing Ab and Bb.

2. You can watch this guy lay out the chords to So What. You'll learn that one of the ways to get "tension" is quartal chords, eg, the "so what voicing."

3. You can watch this guy. I have been learning a lot from him. And my piano playing has improved several fold.

I find easier to learn watching piano vids, you see the chord and melody at the same time, and it's easier to figure out what note they are using.

Another thing you might learn about this kind of music, is that it may give you headache.

**fefe** · 01-21-2011, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Aristotle

fefe,
You might try these three things.

1. Just to get used to mode sounds...What I used to do on my classical to practice indepdence between the thumb and fingers was to play, for example an A bass as whole notes, then play modes with A on top, changing from quater note scales with the the RH fingers, then eighth notes, then in scale patterns and syncopations (change RH fingers a only, ai, etc). When you run out of modes because you have only three useful open string bass notes, you can retune your bass string by a half step, practice modes containing Ab and Bb.

2. You can watch this guy lay out the chords to So What. You'll learn that one of the ways to get "tension" is quartal chords, eg, the "so what voicing."

3. You can watch this guy. I have been learning a lot from him. And my piano playing has improved several fold.

I find easier to learn watching piano vids, you see the chord and melody at the same time, and it's easier to figure out what note they are using.

Another thing you might learn about this kind of music, is that it may give you headache.

Thanks Aristotle, i will look that up, i think you are right, first thing is i have to get used to modal kind of sound, the thing is when i started to try to improvise over a modal vamp, i tend to think in chords/arpeggio forms, and i don't think that's the right way.....i may have to try to think more intervallic, or as Jonny pac said "try to make friends with the notes"

**JonnyPac** · 01-22-2011, 04:37 AM

Glad to see you on FB, Fefe. Intervals are nearly everything. Memorize every sound + fretboard location. It opens everything up nicely. Best wishes!

**Aristotle** · 01-22-2011, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by fefe

when i started to try to improvise over a modal vamp, i tend to think in chords/arpeggio forms, and i don't think that's the right way.....

It's a starting point. Regular stuff (scalar passages) can be spiced up with quartal chords, or you can stay out there.

1. The main theme of So What is pretty simple. I always suggest starting improv with variations of the melody. Whatever tonality you want to call it (9th chord or b7 pentatonic). So you can play just with those notes, at first

2. Pentatonic scale patterns moving to ones with skips is also way to find ideas and common fields plowed by improvisers. And then there is the altered pentatonic suggested on the tube.

1 and 2 with displacement can carry you pretty far. IMO, part of getting this "right" is having a pretty normally contoured line, that never really "resolve" to a point of gravity because the changing chord keeps pulling the root out from under the listener's predictions.

Point of caution. Tonality varies greatly, IMO, with how much the harmony (like a pianists left hand) moves around from one quartal to another. The ear may begin to predict the pentatonic melodic pattern, and then a delay for syncopation is suddenly filled by another hard stacato quartal surprise chord built on yet another scale degree. This is part of why So What may be the only jazz standard with as few as two tonal centers. That is, if this is really one "mode."

As an aside, I question the sufficiency of "mode" theory. So What type of songs don't sound like the same "mode" as fixed root stuff Santana (Evil Ways, etc) or Carol King's, It's Too Late. Can both of these really be same "Dorian"? To me, it's like the difference between operating in Earth's gravity and the Moon's gravity. Perhaps an intermediate point between the two is Steely Dan's Bodhisattva, alternating So-What type voicings and very stay-at-home riff and solo.

I am sure someone can explain this better than me.

I am from the school of - you need to be able to hear it and do it, because it takes too long to explain.

**Reg** · 01-22-2011, 12:59 PM

Hey Fefe... here's a brief description of how modal music works in Jazz..
I've posted a few things before...somewhere, but anyway
We generally think/hear in Maj. Ionian. tri-tones resolve in standard fashion, G7 goes to Cmaj7 or some version of... In jazz modal music, there are characteristic pitches and different functions or resolutions. When we decide to call a collection of pitches a mode rather than a scale, we imply different melodic and harmonic functions, system of controlling harmonic movement.
The I chord of each mode is always tonic and most important chord in our new modal world and each of other chords have the characteristic Pitch or don't have CP . The traditional Tonic, Sub-Dom., Sub-Dom. Min. and Dominant are gone, We do have function but it is defined by chords having CP or not having. Everyone knows Dorian or "So What"etc...
In Dorian the CP is the 6th degree or if were in D Dorian "B", so in our Modal Dorian world, there are chords with "B" and without.

D-7 ......tonic chord
E-7........has characteristic pitch
Fmaj7....no characteristic pitch
G7 ........has CP, but has Tri-tone and will strongly imply Cmaj. (avoided)
A-7........no CP
B-7b5.....has CP, but has Tri-tone and will also strongly imply Cmaj.
Cmaj7....has CP
In our D Dorian Modal World, G7 and B-7b5 have the all powerful tri-tone which very strongly implies the key C or modal sound of Ionian. So if were trying to imply D Dorian we would stay away from those two chords or use carfully. We would imply our D Dorian world by calling chords with the characteristic pitch,(B), our cadence chords. Examples of cadence would be...
E-7 to D-7....II-7 t0 I-7
Cmaj7 to D-7... VIImaj7 to I-7.
This is the basics... Phrigian's CP is b2, Aeolian's is 6 etc...
You add Modal interchange and the rest of the scales and you have a lot of material to work with. I'll try and scan some examples from standard, many tune have modal sections. Best Reg

**JonnyPac** · 01-22-2011, 02:25 PM

Nice replies, guys. I never thought of tit that way, Reg, but I hear it and do it sometimes. Displacement, shifting quartal chords, melodic development... great stuff.

**fefe** · 01-23-2011, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

D-7 ......tonic chord
E-7........has characteristic pitch
Fmaj7....no characteristic pitch
G7 ........has CP, but has Tri-tone and will strongly imply Cmaj. (avoided)
A-7........no CP
B-7b5.....has CP, but has Tri-tone and will also strongly imply Cmaj.
Cmaj7....has CP
In our D Dorian Modal World, G7 and B-7b5 have the all powerful tri-tone which very strongly implies the key C or modal sound of Ionian. So if were trying to imply D Dorian we would stay away from those two chords or use carfully. We would imply our D Dorian world by calling chords with the characteristic pitch,(B), our cadence chords. Examples of cadence would be...
E-7 to D-7....II-7 t0 I-7
Cmaj7 to D-7... VIImaj7 to I-7.
This is the basics... Phrigian's CP is b2, Aeolian's is 6 etc...
You add Modal interchange and the rest of the scales and you have a lot of material to work with. I'll try and scan some examples from standard, many tune have modal sections. Best Reg

Hi Reg, thanks a lot for your explanation, i was actually starting to learn "so what" and started to get confused because my solo always sound ionian (C maj7) somewhat, and your explanation answers it...

, but how do you decide which note is the "CP" in certain modes?and what is the function of the non CP harmony in a modal tune? eg. A-7 in so what...i am also interested if you can point out a modal section on a diatonic tune...many thanks

**Reg** · 01-23-2011, 11:19 PM

He fefe... Chords with characteristic pitches can function as cadence chords, and usually do. Where in "So What " is A-7...
Look at "Afro Blue" I'm from school that an entire tune doesn't need to be in one mode to be called modal. Like Joe Henderson's "Inner Urge", I hear each 4 bar phrase as short modal sections. The corruption or relaxation of classical tradition in jazz lets the concept of Modal be used in shorter sections of tunes... One tune may have modal sections and blocked together like Wayne Shorter's compositional block technique. Check out "Mahjong", or Hancock's "Maiden Voyage", McCoy's "Passion Dance", 1st Part of Henderson's "Mo'Joe" or "Black Narcissus"... Hope Helps Reg

**fefe** · 01-23-2011, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

He fefe... Chords with characteristic pitches can function as cadence chords, and usually do. Where in "So What " is A-7...
Look at "Afro Blue" I'm from school that an entire tune doesn't need to be in one mode to be called modal. Like Joe Henderson's "Inner Urge", I hear each 4 bar phrase as short modal sections. The corruption or relaxation of classical tradition in jazz lets the concept of Modal be used in shorter sections of tunes... One tune may have modal sections and blocked together like Wayne Shorter's compositional block technique. Check out "Mahjong", or Hancock's "Maiden Voyage", McCoy's "Passion Dance", 1st Part of Henderson's "Mo'Joe" or "Black Narcissus"... Hope Helps Reg

so i guess, as cadence the A-7 acts as a tension, and is to be resolved to a more stable chord with CP (b) or tonic (d-7), and try to avoid that strong tri tone chord in order to keep the D dorian flavor in that tune...i'll check out that tunes, thanks a lot...

**ksjazzguitar** · 01-24-2011, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

I'm from school that an entire tune doesn't need to be in one mode to be called modal. ...The corruption or relaxation of classical tradition in jazz lets the concept of Modal be used in shorter sections of tunes...

True. And I don't even think that you need to call it a "corruption." True, they sometimes switched modes but never as quickly as we do. But the Impressionists, when they did use modal thinking did change modal vamps throughout the tune, more so than the medieval but less so than the jazz. So modal jazz might be seen as a continuation of that process. Perhaps "relaxation" is the best word for it.

And as I've said before, I don't think that modal jazz survived for long in its "pure" form and there were really only a few key tunes and soloists that lived up to the original pure vision of modal before it evolved. It soon got combined with new vocabulary and new techniques. (I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with that.) I don't think that "pure" modal jazz lasted that long, but it got so absorbed into the fabric of jazz that it affected nearly everything that came after it, sometimes obviously so, and sometimes more subtly. Some tunes can even be mixes of modal and tonal sections or just have small chunks of one of the other. "My Favorite Things" is usually played modally, but it also has a few ii-V-I. "Footprints" is played modally even though its changes are functional (the long durations allowing the illusion of static changes.) "In Your Own Sweet Way" is tonal but has that modal interlude. Real artists aren't bound by categories - we leave that for the nerdy theorists and historians.

Originally Posted by fefe

...i need some directions about this modal vs diatonic progression based jazz music...

I didn't catch anyone else mentioning this, so just to clarify the terminology (for which I seem to be the self-appointed police

)...

"Modal" and "diatonic" are not opposites. "Diatonic" just means that it is or is contained in a 7-note scale. The opposite of "modal" in the sense that you mean would be "tonal" or "functional" harmony. "Modal" just means that it is focused around a tonic and there are the other mode tones that relate to that, but there is no functional harmony. (Although Reg's CP approach is very practical not without historical precedent.) So, as long as you are playing in the mode, you are playing diatonically - you're just not playing tonally or functionally since there is no literal or implied tonic-dominant relationship.

Hope I helped before I put y'all to sleep.

Peace,
Kevin

**fefe** · 01-24-2011, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Glad to see you on FB, Fefe. Intervals are nearly everything. Memorize every sound + fretboard location. It opens everything up nicely. Best wishes!

Thanks Jonny, nice to see you too...

**fefe** · 01-24-2011, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

I didn't catch anyone else mentioning this, so just to clarify the terminology (for which I seem to be the self-appointed police

)...

"Modal" and "diatonic" are not opposites. "Diatonic" just means that it is or is contained in a 7-note scale. The opposite of "modal" in the sense that you mean would be "tonal" or "functional" harmony. "Modal" just means that it is focused around a tonic and there are the other mode tones that relate to that, but there is no functional harmony. (Although Reg's CP approach is very practical not without historical precedent.) So, as long as you are playing in the mode, you are playing diatonically - you're just not playing tonally or functionally since there is no literal or implied tonic-dominant relationship.

Hope I helped before I put y'all to sleep.

Peace,
Kevin

I guess i am using a wrong word, it is better to say functional against non functional harmony...thanks Kevin...