Brand New To Playing Jazz Guitar!

[November]

I never thought so many guys that played jazz guitar were such pussies. lol

I'm an idiot. Ok. What sweeping statement did I make? Conversation is built upon sweeping assumptions. Did you not know that? Key center improv is a sort of sweeping statement. Is that wrong? You're allowed to do whatever you want.

PLUS you don't know what knowledge I have. Nor will you ever. So you're really the idiot for judging someone you don't know!

Joe's dad got drunk and made him play. Deal with it. It's a fact. Shooting the messenger doesn't change the fact.

Whatever. I can lurk around here and take what I need. None of you play well enough to talk as big as you do so keep talking. You all seem to be pretty good at it.

[m78w]

Wow, this thread got outta control pretty quickly huh?

[mr. beaumont]

But Mr. Beaumont, are you Jeff Matz? The playing is actually pretty good, so though you have no apparent social skills, your playing is nice.

hey, i teach high school. teenage sarcasm is my bread and butter. as for a lack of social skills, you'll get no arguement here, really. it's tough to communicate in words that have no inflection other than the occasional bold or italic...but i still think you were out of line with your response to trinity (who, admittedly was harsh too.) but my comment was supposed to be "humor." i know you didn't know joe pass and his dad. and there was no way you could know if he was "always drunk." you made a blanket statement and got called out on it, and then you got touchy...what else do you want?

a sincere thanks for the comment on my playing, though.

[Trinity]

Hello November (allow me to call you by your user name, rather than something like "guy" or "pal").

As you have stated that my presence in the forum does not matter to you ("leave the forum, I don't care"), I sincerely hope that members will take a look at my initial post, and judge for themselves, whether it could be construed as a personal attack. Wish the same could be said of your reply.
I must however, thank you for complimenting the prettiness of my user name. Your 'A's in Logic(is that Pro7 or Pro8?) will help you reason that a trinity is more than just a pretty name (though perhaps "Gorilla" might have been a bit more manly).

I will make light of your assessment of my education, and will at your invitation, make the most of your radiant wisdom, which I hope you acquired before your 'A's in Logic.

Thank you also for your kind invitation to Los Angeles.
If it were 30 years ago, I would have accepted it with open arms, as I would have had both the logic and common sense to ignore the threatened punch to the throat, and the speed and agility to duck the real one (Ouch!)
I've got wonderful friends and family in Los Angeles. Pity I'll never get to go and visit them without bringing an Orangutan.

In conclusion, while ready, if need be, to differ with a member's viewpoint, I would never set out to personally offend someone, or to use threatening language or anything remotely resembling a personal attack.

If I have done so, then maybe I should apologise.
Maybe I will.
Here goes........I'm sorry.
Ouch! that was hard !

PS. Unlikely anyone will ever say that this is a dull forum, but I hope we can return to Jazz soon, if I'm still welcome !

[derek]

hey, i teach high school. teenage sarcasm is my bread and butter. as for a lack of social skills, you'll get no arguement here, really. it's tough to communicate in words that have no inflection other than the occasional bold or italic...but i still think you were out of line with your response to trinity (who, admittedly was harsh too.) but my comment was supposed to be "humor." i know you didn't know joe pass and his dad. and there was no way you could know if he was "always drunk." you made a blanket statement and got called out on it, and then you got touchy...what else do you want?

a sincere thanks for the comment on my playing, though.

Yep, that's it. Then you add a threat of violence on top of it. Nice. Guys who want to show up here to discuss jazz and other music are welcome. No expectation that everyone will agree, but be a jerk and you will get called on it.

[calico]

People! If you don't stop I'll have to start yammering about the French augmented sixth chord vs. the Italian and German augmented sixth chords and that, my friends, will not be pretty.

[November]

hey, i teach high school. teenage sarcasm is my bread and butter. as for a lack of social skills, you'll get no arguement here, really. it's tough to communicate in words that have no inflection other than the occasional bold or italic...but i still think you were out of line with your response to trinity (who, admittedly was harsh too.) but my comment was supposed to be "humor." i know you didn't know joe pass and his dad. and there was no way you could know if he was "always drunk." you made a blanket statement and got called out on it, and then you got touchy...what else do you want?

a sincere thanks for the comment on my playing, though.

I didn't say always. The way I said it, it could've been interpreted as that it had only happen once. It's not a blanket statement.

So, I'll apologize too for calling names. I was kind of shocked at the initial response to the fact I stated. It knocked me from my senses a bit.

But seriously, it must not have been too personal of an issue if I found out about it. I know someone who knew Joe very well. That's like saying we shouldn't talk about Pat Martino's amnesia. Or Tony Iommi's fingers or Michael Jacksons upbringing (these two would probably not come up much). He is a dead legend. People are going to say all types of stuff. Mine happened to be true. I said it because someone posted about how the audience could call out a song and he could play a chord-melody. I posted to let everyone know it's not some magical reason he can do this. Now we know the original stimulus to that result.

[derek]

I didn't say always. The way I said it, it could've been interpreted as that it had only happen once. It's not a blanket statement.

So, I'll apologize too for calling names. I was kind of shocked at the initial response to the fact I stated. It knocked me from my senses a bit.

But seriously, it must not have been too personal of an issue if I found out about it. I know someone who knew Joe very well. That's like saying we shouldn't talk about Pat Martino's amnesia. Or Tony Iommi's fingers or Michael Jacksons upbringing (these two would probably not come up much). He is a dead legend. People are going to say all types of stuff. Mine happened to be true. I said it because someone posted about how the audience could call out a song and he could play a chord-melody. I posted to let everyone know it's not some magical reason he can do this. Now we know the original stimulus to that result.

Fair enough. However, Joe's learning melodies to all sorts of tunes is common knowledge, as he talks about this on one of his vids. But you are right, it is part of the reason he was so capable as a player. Having so many melodies in your fingers gives you tons of ammunition when it comes time to playing I would think.

[Trinity]

Another thing that Joe emphasised was to keep the thinking simple, ie: for altered dominant chords such as G7-9+5 etc, think G7.

[Goofsus4]

Another thing that Joe emphasised was to keep the thinking simple, ie: for altered dominant chords such as G7-9+5 etc, think G7.

Wow, a whole lot of drama ensued while I was busy this weekend.

Back to Joe Pass. Yes, I have a CD on Joe Pass where he discusses this concept as well. And, what I thought was very interesting is when he said, "Here's a G7." Now, I thought he was going to play an arp, of course, but instead he played b7,1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 and said "that's the sound of G7 to me." He went on to say that he rarely played arps. Now, I'd been working on my arps and I was finding that it was hurting my ability to make interesting melodies, although it was definitely helping me outline chord changes. Previously, I'd been using scales and chromatics by ear to improvise and while I couldn't get those sparkling bright phrases you get from running an arp diagonally across the strings, I was more creative and melodic when I was doing that. I was sort of confused. But after I cogitated on what Joe said for a while, it's dawned on me what he was doing. He was thinking of a chord's tonality as the fusion of both the arp and the scale that represented best the diatonic intervals of that chord. In this case, it was the 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 (or mixolydian if you will).

On my CD, there is also a part where he discusses what you said above about not thinking of all those alterations as different chords, but rather, the same basic chord with just some altered tensions.

Now, this completely reoriented my thinking after I finally understood the power of what he was saying. Now my approach is based on that basic idea of visualizing the arp and its surrounding intervals, then altering that basic configuration as needed with chormatics or tensions. So, as I've posted several times before, I'm thinking in terms of intervals FIRST then letting the patterns present themselves to me as I run lines. These patterns that have emerged to me now are real shape-shifters. When I am playing I see the penatonic shapes, the mode shapes, etc., flash by, but they are within the context of the intervals and tensions I want, and I just select notes from that palette based on what I'm hearing and where the changes are going.

Anyway, not sure that all makes sense, but that little comment of his completely reoriented me and my improvisational playing has really burgeoned as a result. Chord melody is also much easier to me now because I am getting so familiar with the location of all the intervals that I see and create vocings that work with the melody line much more readily now.

[Trinity]

Yes, for me too, that little comment from JP made quite an impact on my thinking about altered dominant chords, to the extent that I now see for example a G7-9+5 as a G7, with a spoon of chromaticism poured in !
I'm using the analogy with cooking, as I think it has a lot in common with music (and vice versa).......too much or too little of a particular ingredient, and it aint right.

Now it may sound like a contradiction of my opening sentence, but when I am playing, I ideally don't want to "think" at all.
This is because I believe that at the optimum moment......that moment when the time, the place, and the mood are in blissful alignment.....the musician is not playing the music.

The music is playing the musician.

[calico]

arp??? .....scratching head......

[calico]

OH! Arpeggio! I'm a little slow today....

[Goofsus4]

Now it may sound like a contradiction of my opening sentence, but when I am playing, I ideally don't want to "think" at all.
This is because I believe that at the optimum moment......that moment when the time, the place, and the mood are in blissful alignment.....the musician is not playing the music.

The music is playing the musician.

I totally agree and understand exactly what you mean. I am "thinking" of all this only when working stuff out and experimenting. Once I'm playing "for real" then I'm not thinking about too much except maybe tonal centers/root locations as landmarks to where I want to begin, end, and connect things.

[Trinity]

Well said. You've nailed it.
I too have these quiet, non-intrusive thoughts, which help you along the path, without really getting in the way of the music "happening" to you.