Psychological info of practice time vs. progress?

[spiral]

I find that i am a "do it till i want to smash things" kind of practicer, and charging through difficult exercises (i'm basically a jazz beginner). My girlfriend, who is taking piano lessons, was suggesting it might actually be not helpful / detrimental to take that approach. So i am wondering if anyone knows of any kind of studies, or research that talks about learning vs. time vs. brain absorption. Is there a point where your brain gets too tired to learn anything after 1/2 hour? 5 hours? That kind of thing. I'm not looking for a medical paper, just an article or two. Thanks!

[mr. beaumont]

I don't know the studies, but I know as a teacher, when the point of frustration is reached, the learning usually stops.

[spiral]

I don't know the studies, but I know as a teacher, when the point of frustration is reached, the learning usually stops.

Oh so like immediately. No wonder lessons aren't paying off.

I agree about the brain shutting down during frustration. I was probably a little more hyperbolic than necessary but i do wonder what the diminishing returns curve looks like. Or if there is one.

[robertm2000]

Don't know if this will help. As a former teacher, both music and classroom, sometimes it's good to start with several short periods. In my own experience, I could start practicing an instrument for 15 minutes, two, three or four times a day,and I would make some progress, Eventually, I could lengthen the practice times until I might be practicing 2 or 3 hours. The thing to remember is that you can practice practicing, and if you can make even a small bit of progress, it can encourage you to work harder, and thus take a bit more time, and build up those practice times. In most cases, one-half to one hour seems to be the longest a person could manage at one sitting.

By the way, the average adult's uninterrupted attention span averages out to about 12 minutes. Good luck!

[jeffstocksmusic]

Spiral,

I have been doing some reading on this, mostly out of necessity because of the complexity of the music I play and how little time I have.

I found a couple of books about how to practice...one more from a scientific research perspective and one from a more practical (and somewhat quasi-spiritual..I don't condone the beliefs, but whatever...) perspective. Thought I throw them out there. Interestingly enough, they basically say the same thing....slow and small is the most effective method of locking stuff into the brain.

I suggest them because it sounds like you might need to break the difficult exercises into smaller parts.

I am reading a book called 'The Musician's Way' by Gerald Klickstein now but I am not far enough into it to form much of an opinion. I'll update the thread after I finish it.

Amazon.com: The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How. (9780553806847): Daniel Coyle: Gateway

Amazon.com: The Practicing Mind: Bringing Discipline and Focus Into Your Life (9780977657209): Thomas M. Sterner: Books

[medblues]

This article agrees with your girlfriend and also recommends changing your practice environment.

Mind - Research Upends Traditional Thinking on Study Habits - NYTimes.com

[musicalbodger]

When you get frustrated with your practice, it's too late. Stop before then and try again later.

5 minutes concentrated, focused practice is worth hours of forced, frustrated "doing it because I have to in order to progress".

Check out Kenny Werner's "Effortless Mastery", it won't solve anything but it might give you more insight.

[RonD]

This article agrees with your girlfriend and also recommends changing your practice environment.

Mind - Research Upends Traditional Thinking on Study Habits - NYTimes.com

Thanks medblues,
Interesting article.

[C.A.JO.]

Remember the pareto principle:

80% of your results come from 20% of your effort.
20% of your results come from 80% of your effort.

If you use this principle when developing a effective mindset for guitar practice, your practice time will better pay off.

How? You get focused. Create a practice schedule that balances your short and long term goals, and strengths and weaknesses. Meaning that you should practice to make your current strengths to super strengths and your weaknesses should be eliminated.

I find having a practice schedule and a practice journal is THE most effective way of making your practice sessions goal oriented, motivating, and getting results.

Practicing in a focused manner in accordance to a strategy that nourishes your strengths and weaknesses to reach your long term goals, you'll make much more out of 1 hour than most guitarists make out of 3 hours jumping around from subject to subject in coincidal manner. Having a clear direction like this will make even 30 min. pr. day more effective than just picking up your guitar. Every time you practice something you'll know why you practice it, what you should focus on, how long you should practice it, and what date you should reach your goal. This way you won't "burn out" because you'll know you are not in a rush, and you have a plan.

My own experience with this approach has been significantly more progress with 1 hour of practice than I used to with 3+ hours pr. day of just "playing" my guitar. In fact it's very difficult with this kind of focus to practice more than 1-2 hours. At least for me.

So when planning practice, think efficiency rather than time. Practicing goal-oriented has completely eliminated the kinds of frustrations you experience for me. Of course I experience plateaus as everybody else, but then I know it's time to review my plan (not my goals), and attack the problem from a different angle.

[Ausjazz]

I agree with C.A.JO. Work out a schedule, write down what you want to work on and combine it with what everyone else is saying by making your practice time snappy.

I get about 2 hours in, 5 days a week. For me it's six lots of practice - some chords, tunes, sight reading, improvising, working on a specific technique. It has worked well, as it's hard to get frustrated with a 20 minute block, you are onto something new before you can.

Cheers, JP

[spiral]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

I am taking lessons right now. They are one on one lessons every week. I have about 5 - 10 things i that i have to run through each week that i need to work on: Real Book tune (learning chords), different arp combinations, scales, modes, etc. I don't just pick up my guitar and play whatever. Each week i want to master the new exercises / variations that i am given, that is my goal. I have been doing this for about a year.

My question was about learning fatigue. CAJO hit on it with the 80/20 idea. Also medblues, thanks for the article. This reinforces what others here have been saying:

Varying the type of material studied in a single sitting — alternating, for example, among vocabulary, reading and speaking in a new language — seems to leave a deeper impression on the brain than does concentrating on just one skill at a time.

@Ausjazz are you saying you do 2 hours total a week? Or two hours every day for 5 days (10 total)? I told my teacher, when i started, that i could afford about 2 hours a day x 7 days for study (its more like an hour a night in reality)

@jeffstock thanks for the books. I found another one called "Musical Excellence: Strategies and Techniques..." but it was $64 and i would never read the whole thing. I will check to see if the library has the ones you listed. I would love to hear what your takeaway is.

@musicalbodger thank you. this is a good starting point. Maybe trying each exercise for only 5 minutes, each day, for one week, is a good experiment.

@CAJO: it sometimes takes me just an hour to get through all of the exercises i have one time. A realbook tune, if it has lots of new chords, can take 45 just to make it through one time.

Sounds like 5-15 minutes per exercise is appropriate. If i don't play something correctly the first 10 minutes should i move on, or continue until i can get it right at least once?

Also, "you're screwed" is an appropriate reply.

[RonD]

spiral,
Ask yourself after each segment, whether it's 5 minutes or an hour, AM I BETTER? If the answer is yes, no matter how small the improvement, you're on the right track.
Not everybody can devote hours to practicing. Even when they do, it tends to be non-productive.
Celebrate the successes. They accumulate very quickly.

[Modalguru]

Hi,

I think most serious students of jazz read too many books and do too much exercises.
Most people start with lots of books but don't stick with them till the end, they don't really work through them, causing lots of gaps in their knowledge of basics. In many cases, exercises are exercises and not music. So, when you do to much of those exercises, there will come a time, when you will just sound like your exercises.

My suggestion:
- you wanna learn chords-voicings: take a song and check out a couple of voicings an put them into action immediately (do a chord-melody of the song, record your own playback for soloing, etc)
- you wanna practise technique: select a challenging solo transcription, analyse it, learn it by heart, start slowly
- go to beginners jazzsessions regularly
- get one good book on theory (you don't need more of them)

The goal should be making good music, not exercises. One book I always recommend is "the music lesson" by victor wooten. I only costs a view bucks and in my mind it's not only the best instruction on practising, it's a nice story, too.

Cheers, Modalguru

[spiral]

Thanks Modalguru. I appreciate the sentiment but don't really agree which is why i decided to take lessons last year. Foundation is really important to any art form. I am a designer by profession and the more experience i gain professionally the more appreciate the basics i learned in school--and find major weaknesses in areas that i ignored or skipped.

I trust my instructor knows what he is doing and it keeps me on a schedule to actually accomplish something. My question was really about learning fatigue / brain absorption. I don't have any dissonance about the need to practice. If anything it sounds like i'm trying too hard.

Without a basic mastery of the tools and craft you can't make the kind of advanced connections you need to play or create competently. I have no foundation in guitar apart from basic chords i learned when i was in rock bands and wanted to get good on guitar before i die so i guess i'm now cramming for the exam.

[Modalguru]

Hi,
I've got a good teacher, too and we are touching all the subjects, but always in connection with a song, so it's always in a musical context.
When I started out with jazz for the first time more than 10 years ago, I had a teacher for a year, who gave me lots of exercises. First I thought, I made good progress, but I really sucked at the bandstand cause I could not put those things into action. I could not put the material into context with songs. I got so frustrated, that I stopped playing jazz at all and went back to rock.

Concerning the brain absorption: when learning new material, first it's normal to have a feeling of getting worse. Many times you will practise some stuff for a couple of days, then there's one day, you concentrate on other topics and when you return to the previous material, all the sudden it works. Information concerning motion sequences needs some time to move from cerebrum to cerebellar ;-)

[Patrick Brown]

All that's normal, I think. I remember learning that we learn, not on a curve, but in steps,,noticeable jump ups to the next level. Some(alot) of this is when we sleep. It's not so much a matter of our muscles(brains, too), learning what to do as it is what not to do. Always nice to have some sort of recording program, for flat out fun,,then creativity,,and also as a way to measure progress. BIAB(for Mac) at least, can connect to Garage Band, so you can save your sessions so as to monitor progress. I don't have it(yet),,but I do use Ableton 8 on an iMac. It's like BIAB, except I am BIAB, and though it works fine, it's somewhat more labor intensive, cuz I'm the one who lays the backing tracks. I use a keyboard controller for everything but guitar,,i. e. bass, drums, keyboards,,but that in itself is a learning experience. Far less prob laying drums and bass than keyboards, in some cases, though I know my way around a keyboard,,though never in jazz, like I know chords on guitar. A good many of my pieces lately are 2 guitars, bass, drums,,no keys. Great chord practice on the fretboard, too.

[fastFingers]

Hi, I hope this helps.

I find it's really efficient to practice when I'm having fun. I only "play"/practice when I feel like it. That's the mentality. I'd say to myself I'd just pick up the guitar for 2 chords, but the trick is that I know once I settled in...I'd be more than likely to sit there for a long time. I also only play what I want, and what I find easily fun...that's the mentality again, but after some wiggling around the fretboard, I'd start to zone in on couple of things that I wanted to work on. It's like setting up for failure thing...but this is more like setting up for success/efficiency.

Sometimes when things are seemingly hard to do, I'd just briefly go over them there and revisit them again next session or in a few days when I feel like it. More than likely, I'd find that I can just do that something I couldn't have done before much easier. I also play/practice what's easiest first...never play hard stuff, and slowly I find that the harder things before just become easier...so keep it easy, keep it fun. If it starts to get boring, or feels like work, put it down and come back later when you're having fun again.

I also find it really time saving and efficient to just remember everything you want to play/practice first. Let see how I'd approach a practice...I'd try to "briefly" remember a scale first rather than just sitting down, and practice right away. I'm more prone to get frustrated looking back and forth between the sheet, fretboard, and my hands that way. Usually after I've had a rough idea of the scale in my mind, I find that I often have a much easier time practicing it; When I'm just sitting around, I'd just run that scale automatically off the top of my head without having to look back and forth for the sheet and hands.

This is how I get my 4hrs+ of focus practice everyday...so...try to memorize, always do the easy things first, and keep it fun.

[Claudi]

Hi,

I think most serious students of jazz read too many books and do too much exercises.
Most people start with lots of books but don't stick with them till the end, they don't really work through them, causing lots of gaps in their knowledge of basics. In many cases, exercises are exercises and not music. So, when you do to much of those exercises, there will come a time, when you will just sound like your exercises.

The goal should be making good music, not exercises.
Cheers, Modalguru

Since I'm NOT YET a cat what I usually do If I don't sound jazzy is to put a CD or a jazz guitar youtube vid on until I feel the music. Most of the times is that at the start I don't get the touch/feel. Depending on the day it takes 5, 10 minutes or even I keep on watching!
Seriously, try it.

[Ausjazz]

Spiral - I practice for about 10 hours a week (2 hours a day x 5 days). I also play in a rock folk band, but I don't count that, as it's not practice to me. It's fun and there's application of what I'm doing in jazz, but it's not practicing.

Back to your original question, I generally split my 2 hours into 2 sets of 3 x 20 minute-ish blocks. So I practice for an hour, go take five minutes away and then come back and do the second lot.

I know people say you can retain more if you take more regular and longer breaks. But I work, have a family, play sport and occasionally sleep.. So I need to cram my practice in. And anyway, I find I can concentrate for an hour because in 20 minutes I'm onto another area.

I'd say develop a schedule that's right for you and respect those time limits so that you don't have, or at least minimse, "do it till i want to smash things" moments.

[derek]

Here's another interesting study on the topic. I found it facinating.

How Much Should We Practice? | Wired Science| Wired.com

[C.A.JO.]

Here's another interesting study on the topic. I found it facinating.

How Much Should We Practice? | Wired Science| Wired.com

I hope I'm sounding dumb when asking this, but I want everyone to remember I'm not a native English speaker, I'm in a rush, so maybe I've read it too fast:-)

The point of the study (translated to jazz guitar practice), is that if we practice a song for let's say 20 min., listen to a recording of the song for 20 min., then we'll get the same benefit as if we'd practiced the song for 40 min.?

That's how I interpret the word "right stimuli", which the author mentions.

If that's the case... then you still spend 40 min. on something you would have practiced for 40 min.! People might as well practice for that length IMO, assuming you like to play.

I don't know if I got right. I would understand it if the following "stimuli" was for a shorter period of time.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I always like the Chico Marx story (remember, he played piano?): he would soak his hands in hot water for a bit then say, "enough practicing!" and go off to do some gambling.

[kambor]

I hope I'm sounding dumb when asking this, but I want everyone to remember I'm not a native English speaker, I'm in a rush, so maybe I've read it too fast:-)

The point of the study (translated to jazz guitar practice), is that if we practice a song for let's say 20 min., listen to a recording of the song for 20 min., then we'll get the same benefit as if we'd practiced the song for 40 min.?

That's how I interpret the word "right stimuli", which the author mentions.

If that's the case... then you still spend 40 min. on something you would have practiced for 40 min.! People might as well practice for that length IMO, assuming you like to play.

I don't know if I got right. I would understand it if the following "stimuli" was for a shorter period of time.

Not exactly. The article is talking about auditory exercises, so maybe this difficult fragment, through repetition, is easier to identify because it's already completely or partially memorized. Through the history of science there have been studies about how the brain learns new information, and some studies tried to prove that people could learn inconsciously. It turns out that this only helps the kind of tasks like "parrot memorizing" (which, in the case of music, is pretty useful when it comes to recognizing patterns or interval combinations).

So, the stimuli is something related to the task that reminds the brain about the same task.