scales or chordal notes

[cisco kid]

Hello,
For jazz soloing what is the best approach using the chordal notes of the chords of the song or using scales over the chords?
Some older jazz instructors detest scales over chords (especially one icon studio musician of the '60s & '70s major hits done in Hollywood told me) . Today's teachers not being from the '40s and '50s jazz era emphazise scales. The older teachers vehemently/emphatically says this is wrong. The icon told me don't compare me with those #@*?/~ scale teachers, it's wrong in jazz.
The music comes from the chords (jazz standards). The notes - study the numbers of the chords (1-3-5 or 1-b3-5; extenstions, substitutions, back cycle chords, etc.).
What do you think?

[cisco kid]

Hello,
For jazz soloing what is the best approach using the chordal notes of the chords of the song or using scales over the chords?
Some older jazz instructors detest scales over chords (especially one icon studio musician of the '60s & '70s major hits done in Hollywood told me) . Today's teachers not being from the '40s and '50s jazz era emphazise scales. The older teachers vehemently/emphatically says this is wrong. The icon told me don't compare me with those #@*?/~ scale teachers, it's wrong in jazz.
The music comes from the chords (jazz standards). The notes - study the numbers of the chords (1-3-5 or 1-b3-5; extenstions, substitutions, back cycle chords, etc.).
What do you think?

[Luan]

You have to know the history of the music, at first it wasn't a theoretical thing where they knew what scales could be used, they knew you could play the chord tones and extensions, chromatic passing tones, etc.
Since musicians discovered more and more, today we have a theory on all the posibilities, scales, triads, arpeggios, substitutions, outside playing, etc.
So it depends on how do you want to sound, what song you are playing, what style, where you are playing (where is the gig), etc
So basically, saying that you have to play with scales it's wrong, and saying you have to play with chord tones it's wrong too. It depends on the context, if you're playing a fusion tune, you can pretty much play anything. If you're playing a bebop tune and you don't care about the style or the tradition, you can play anything too, it depends on what do you want to do.

[voelker]

Chord tones all the way. actually, 1,3,5 and 1,b3,5 are degrees of a scale. They create a shell for many scales, Once you can play/understand 1,3,5 all over the neck then its easy to add the 2,4,6, and 7 to get the scale you want, this way you automatically know which note in the scale you are playing.

[rabbit]

Add this: it gets pertinent to you at about 3:00 and very interesting
at about 4:20. If you don't know Carol Kaye, look her up, she leads
to interesting things.

[cisco kid]

It was Carol Kaye who does not believe using scales (she calls them "travel notes" in improvising jazz. In the 1950s nobody did that. Only a few instructors in the U.S.A. especially black colleges use her approach or the approach that was used in the 50s to play jazz now the rock guitarist - music teachers - turning to jazz don't know anything about jazz improvisation. It's the notes in the chords that make it work using scales won't get you there. She wrote me don't compare me with those ignorants who teach that way. She played jazz guitar in the 50s and bass in the studios and clubs later one of the thee best.

[cisco kid]

What you just explained was not new in the 1950s when Carol Kaye played jazz guitar in the Los Angeles area turned to guitar studio work by luck then by luck jumped on bass. She was one of the best bass players in the studio world. She's on too many to mention popular hits of the late 50s, 60s, 70s. She does not believe in traveling notes (scales) to improvise jazz nobody really did that in the 50s none of the greats did not.
These days to create jazz using scales is ignorant way of doing so. They are doing a bass player - guitarist a disservice.

[cisco kid]

I do know Carol Kaye something about her. She does not believe in scales in improvising jazz it's the notes of the chords. Scales are "travel notes" none of the greats learned to improvise using scales in the 40s or 50s. These days it's ignorant she says to do so. It's because the young guys especially the rock guitarist turned jazz teachers don't know any better they weren't there. It's a scam. In Black Colleges music dept. still teach the way it was done back then and there are Older music teachers that still teach the way it was taught and the way Kaye teaches. That's how you get there quicker and get the sounds properly. In the 50s jazz guitarist who used scales were shunned or made fun of in those days you can hear the difference.

[jeffstritt]

Well let's think about this...

Arpps...

1-3-5-7 and then the extensions 9-11-13

or the scale...

1-9-3-11-5-13-7

Does it really make a difference? So if you are playing in the correct tonal center I don't see that it makes much of a difference as long as the notes you emphasize are the 1-3-5-7. Besides, bop players played all kinds of altered stuff using modes of melodic minor. I think the key is to combine the linear ideas in a way that accentuates the harmony of the tune.

But thats just my opinion for what it's worth, I'm not saying it's the gospel.

[derek]

What you just explained was not new in the 1950s when Carol Kaye played jazz guitar in the Los Angeles area turned to guitar studio work by luck then by luck jumped on bass. She was one of the best bass players in the studio world. She's on too many to mention popular hits of the late 50s, 60s, 70s. She does not believe in traveling notes (scales) to improvise jazz nobody really did that in the 50s none of the greats did not.
These days to create jazz using scales is ignorant way of doing so. They are doing a bass player - guitarist a disservice.

Wow, that is pretty off base, if I understand you correctly. It is all available, not just some. Triads, arpeggios, scales, they are just ways of organizing the same 12 notes we all have to work with.

Universities, specifically Berklee, seemed to really emphasize the chord/scale thing, but really, I don't know anyone who doesn't use a combination of all that stuff. Yes, Carol is VERY opinionated about the use of triads and chord tones.

Listen to Joe Pass. If you think he isn't playing with scales in mind, I would recommend listening again. While I will agree that it wasn't emphasized then like it is now, Coltrane was greatly informed by Slominsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns.

It is not an either or, but like a menu at a good restaurant, it is all available, just depends on your appetite.

[Reg]

Hello,
For jazz soloing what is the best approach using the chordal notes of the chords of the song or using scales over the chords?
Some older jazz instructors detest scales over chords (especially one icon studio musician of the '60s & '70s major hits done in Hollywood told me) . Today's teachers not being from the '40s and '50s jazz era emphazise scales. The older teachers vehemently/emphatically says this is wrong. The icon told me don't compare me with those #@*?/~ scale teachers, it's wrong in jazz.
The music comes from the chords (jazz standards). The notes - study the numbers of the chords (1-3-5 or 1-b3-5; extenstions, substitutions, back cycle chords, etc.).
What do you think?

What happens when the chords are wrong, change etc... to me personally there's not much more boring than hearing solos made up from simple chord arpeggios... jazz improvisation is not scales, arpeggios, passing, approach, chromatic, or any other name for collections of notes... vertical or horizontal ... it's your ability to use all your skills to express yourself musically and interact and react to what...your playing... and whom your playing with. If you limit yourself as to what type of collection of notes you use.... your putting limits on playing what you hear and how you interact.
There are no shortcuts or magic approaches to improvisation, a jazz player or for that matter any good musician is required to understand, read or at least be able to play all the technical skills or aspects of music... Jazz players need to be aware of historical or characteristic styles of standards... it's pretty hard to speak about something when you don't know what it is... anyway once you learn the all material... you develop you own style and may choose not to use certain techniques, but that point comes after you learn the material... Best Reg

[cisco kid]

Speaking of Joe Pass she has books on Joe Pass and played with him and has books on jazz phrasing ala Joe Pass. But yes she is VERY opinionated about the use of triads and chord tones etc. in improvising. She trashed Wolf Marshall's book on Joe Pass online where you can purchase that book. But I guess when you get into jazz fusion (oil mixed with water) the old players don't like it - you get into all these modal scales. But jazz standards i.e. "All The Things You Are" etc. and the like you go by the chord tones etc. She says what I learned you won't find in any of the newer books or online, but she does use some scales to a limit. That's my last comment on this subject.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Transcription of "Giant Steps" Discuss.

[derek]

Speaking of Joe Pass she has books on Joe Pass and played with him and has books on jazz phrasing ala Joe Pass. But yes she is VERY opinionated about the use of triads and chord tones etc. in improvising. She trashed Wolf Marshall's book on Joe Pass online where you can purchase that book. But I guess when you get into jazz fusion (oil mixed with water) the old players don't like it - you get into all these modal scales. But jazz standards i.e. "All The Things You Are" etc. and the like you go by the chord tones etc. She says what I learned you won't find in any of the newer books or online, but she does use some scales to a limit. That's my last comment on this subject.

Oh sure you can find stuff on triad based and arpeggio based playing. I recently picked up my copy of Garrison Fewell's book, Jazz Improvisation For Guitar A Melodic Approach, due to a recent thread here on this topic.

Garrison's book is all about superimposing triads to get upper extensions and going for a more melodic feel. Garrison has been a long time instructor at Berklee.

Mimi Fox, a Pass disciple, has a wonderful book out on arpeggios, and using them with standards. Really, there are so many books/vids out there that approach jazz guitar at every angle. The problem isn't the resources, it is deciding on which one to focus on!

I have one of Carol's small books on jazz guitar, and have an old black and white vid of her teaching bass. I play bass also, and find her teaching back then is as relevant now. Over on talkbass.com, she is well respected, but everyone is certainly aware of her theoretical biases.

No big deal, everyone finds what works for them, and then becomes a proponent of that approach. Many paths to the top of the mountain.

BTW, I merged these two threads since they were duplicates.

[cisco kid]

Well, thanks, I'm new to this (Forum) and I wanted some feedback. One has to know people and where they are coming from. Meaning keep an open mind in learning even in music theory books I have read. That's what this Forum is about, I guess. I heard the late great Howard Roberts only criticize was some record producers and the damn "War Babies" in the mid 50s when jazz guitar was progressing when Rock and Roll started in the music business ... it set us back in the record business and studio sessions as far as interesting guitar playing - too boring and simple. You deal with all kinds of personalities even in music, of course. The goal is how to get their without getting ripped off and Roberts got ripped off I heard in his Guitar Institute school now MI. I mean how to play jazz the best way without buying books that don't work. There's a market for that as we all know. What is the best approach without all the fluff. In other words, getting your monies worth when purchasing educational music material.

[fep]

Jazz evolved, there are albums that are all about scales and modes... ever heard of "Kind of Blue".

You need to know scales, arps, chromatics etc. to play the jazz repetiore.

What Carol preaches is very dated. I think she plays okay (much better than me of course) do a search on youtube, I think she's kind of average... Barney Kessel said she wasn't really a jazz player. And the whole bit of her claiming credit for many of those all time great James Jammerson bass lines is pretty ugly. Either she's a liar or senile.

[cisco kid]

I have the vinyl album of "Kind of Blue"; "A Love Supreme", "Giant Steps" etc. Also a plethora of jazz guitar albums by all the greats...you name 'em.. I got.. I got 'em plus compilation of jazz great greats albums. I heard and seen her on YouTube. I was sent attachments from her on her website. It's drummer Hal Blaine that might be the liar not her. The "Wrecking Crew" no such label according to her in those days. She has documents to back her up and fellow musicians also. Those days are gone and the recording industry is way too mechnical - no human touch/sound anymore. But this is all gossip which I don't think what the Forum is all about. But I want to learn and you hear all kinds of advice - ALL KINDS - where's the Beef?....meaning the jazz guitar sound. She was taught by Horace Hatchett which taught Howard Roberts and Jimmy Wyble etc. She's been teaching since 1949, and been playing jazz guitar since then in clubs with all groups and musicians, and recorded in the studios (Quincy Jones, H. Alpert, P. Spector, Ray Charles, TV, Movies) some of the tops songs of the 60's and 70's including "La Bamba" (rhythm guitar - late '50s) this lady has been around. A lot of experience comparing to the young ego trip want-to-be jazz teachers she talks about. I listen to her and read her attachments but keep an open mind.

[Luan]

Let's see:
If you have 2 beats of a chord, and you are playing 8th notes, you can only play 4 notes. So, there isn't a chance of playing an entire scale, so basically you can see it as a arp with some extra notes? it's a scale anyways, if you have Cmaj7 and you play a B, you're playing ionian, it's not hard to tell that. Just because you play one note it doesn't mean that the function of the chord isn't the same, and the overall sound of it is the same. If you go straight and play the #4 only, it's lydian. Simple.
They are called chord scales for something, one gives the sound of another.
Pat Martino, Metheny, Scofield, Rosenwinkel, Tim Miller, Holdsworth, I know that all of those players know scales pretty well, they know how to play them well so they sound musical and nothing else.
Also, Gary burton is an expert in scale choice.
Everything helps, you have to study everything, chord tones, scales, outside playing, etc

[Reg]

Are you searching for directions on how to play jazz in a specific style, a specific period or certain years. When I was a young player I simply copied or transcribed the players I wanted to sound like and in the process picked up on their style or technique. Now many years later, I can simply listen to music and most of the time hear or write out what's going on. Some players play lines and hear or think in that fashion... usually single line players, and that's a great way to improvise.( by lines I mean arpeggios and scalar collections of notes). The problem with rhythm section players is that we, I guess I should say I hear the entire vertical structure for every single note I play, or at least I make a choice and because I have put in the time through studies and I still gig five nights a week, the choice I make is usually pretty obvious and I can explain why I made the choice. As mentioned before we as musicians need to be aware of all improvisational styles and techniques. The days of playing one style and being able to gig regularly are long gone, unless you don't mind playing for only yourself. Part of our job is to educate the audience and help them appreciate Jazz for the sake of jazz. It's a very difficult job, but if we don't do it... who will... Best Reg

[cisco kid]

Thanks Luan & Reg,
I am trying to get into jazz improv. I bumped into Kaye and she is from the old school, but shuns todays jazz improv./soloing teachings. I remember reading in a Blues/Rock "how to play" book the author said stay away from old blues players for learning. We said "How ridiculous" how about B.B. and Buddy and the rest? Stay away from the rest older blues/rock guys? How about the older jazz players compared to the new? Todays jazz players don't sound like the older ones music...yes music/styles evolves...but some say (like Miles Davis said) jazz is dead....is it? Todays jazz players sound like..IMHO..like Holdwworth's style some say also. Some use a lot of scales in rock, jazz..etc. and it's been said they are not saying anything just showing off.
The old jazz standards were beautiful made sense and you can sing and even hum the tune down the street it had harmony.. nowadays...well. You go to the NAMM trade show and it's all blues licks (pentatonic..etc.) if you hear someone play chord/melody jazz tune it's wow or corny to some.. not to me. I want to learn - get on the right path, Help!
Thanks for the feedback

[bass2man]

I just looked at the Carol KAye interview and think she is talking about playing bass. I played bass for 25 years in all styles from country to fusion to reggae to funk, before starting on jazz guitar a few years ago...

You rarely play "scales" when playing bass, no matter what style..chord tones and chromatics are the key..except in fusion where you play a lot of motiffs/licks with the band...just like she says...

Playing bass is totally diffent than playing guitar..it ain't just fiddling around on the top four four strings...

Personally, I am just now learning to play more chord tones in my guitar solos (after learing my major,minor,dom scales) to bring out playing thru the chord changes with better resolutions as opposed to over the changes...

My guitar teacher gave me a great example on this..he played random scales totally outside of the key over a simple ii-V-I...but when the chords changed he resolved moving chord to chord using chord tones at the right time..he called it his "Scofield" example...sounded just like him.

So I guess the answer is maybe you need both...

[cisco kid]

bass2man,
Thanks for the reply info. She means as well as her approach in improvising using chordal notes (she also emphasis the number of the notes of the chords not the amount of chords in the song progression) in guitar playing. I don't pay attention to her bass playing instructions. She teaches guitar (not for beginners) .... jazz playing.
I have emailed her several times and she responded right-a-way... sent me attachments...wow! what a music career in the Hollywood studios and elsewhere. You should see the songs she played in...everything on the radio back in the 60s and early 70s. Now things in the recording sessions musicianwise ... it sucks. It is all electronics. She's nice but tuff ... no fluff about teaching guitar and bass and does not care at all the way it is being taught in most places from what I gather.
I'm just trying get it together for myself...trying find the right stuff.
Thanks