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I've been told to lighten my pick attack/touch and I've worked on it for some time.
It's come to my attention that MAYBE the type of guitar/pickup may have some relation to this.
I've posted two examples of playing, I feel that one guitar feels snappier and harder than the other. Keep in mind, on both samples, I'm consciously trying to play as light as possible. One is a strat style single coil, one is a humbucker. Same amp.
Can a couple of you listen and tell me if you hear a difference?? Does this theory have any merit? Or is this all in my head?
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10-15-2024 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
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Why do you have to lighten your pick attack?
My view is that it's not only an attack issue but a rhythm and articulation issue too.
When you pound out each note it sounds hoakey. So it's more about being able to play legato lines than only pick attack.
Up to you if you want to change your style. I think the playing sounds nice. It does have that pounding out each note thing tho.
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Right you are, BT, too staccato, o.k. for rock 'n roll but not jazz.
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I agree with the too heavy "pick attack/touch"; both played pretty nice but the picking sounds really hard. My advice is to get some Jim Dunlop .75mm Nylon picks. When you play with them they will bend. Practice with them until you pick light enough that they don't bend (this will give your conscious effort a measurement and goal). This will sound and feel lousy at first, but make it through until you can pick light enough not to bend them.
Then switch to the .88mm version of the same pick for a while. These will sound and feel better, and will bend if you play firmly - but try to bring up your picking force just enough not to bend them. Use these for a while until you don't have to constantly monitor your picking force.
Then use your choice of 1mm pick, and if you backslide into too hard picking, shift back to the .88 for a while. Once your hands discover that your playing smooths outs and speed ups with lighter picking they will naturally settle in with the new habit long term.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Sure, I'll take a look at it.
Give me a simple example of a player and a song where it's well done. Please make it a guitar player.
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
Again answering for myself, I don’t think there’s necessarily more value in playing with a lighter attack other than it tends to be closely associated with less tension (though a more experienced player probably should be able to play a big accent with a light touch).
The value is that guitar has a pretty low ceiling for volume and the average jazz line is EXTREMELY dynamic. Think of the difference between the quietest note and loudest note in a typical Charlie Parker line. So for a guitar that means you have to lower your baseline volume a bit to get that huge contrast between the accents and the quieter stuff.
Someone who does that super well for me is Jim Hall, especially because I also picks more than the average in his earlier stuff. Check out the solo on Stompin at the Savoy or on Tangerine from his “Jazz Guitar” record.
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First of all I like your playing, you have a good sense of rhythm and you know how to make your instrument sing. And that is the point for me. Listen to singers and horns more than to guitar players for phrasing. It is all about the imagination of breath. Sing yourself a lot. You do not have to do it in public but it will influence your playing.
Regarding picking lightly, practice to be able to do it but do not do it all the time because if overdone it might lead to that sort of undynamic-ness a lot of jazz guitar is suffering from. One thing that is probably rarely done in straight ahead jazz (but why actually not?) is to strike all strings hard but mute them all but one -- like Jimi or SRV. You could use that as the top of your dynamics with the lightest possible touch that still produces a tone as the other extreme. I would always practice the whole dynamic range to a click and/or something like Drumgenius because sometimes we have a tendency to increase the tempo if we get louder. Practice going from softest to loudest on one note and vice versa.
But you better not listen to me, I haven't uploaded anything of my mediocre playing here yet, so who am I?
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Picking hard and staccato but singing nonetheless
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
There is also the issue of getting in the habit of getting in a medium dynamic range that way you can bring it down or add little spikes like Peter said:
Originally Posted by pamosmusicOriginally Posted by jobabrinks
Originally Posted by Bop Head
There is also the guitar style of playing very mellow all the time which I don't prefer. I kind of agree with Bop Head:
Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
So I think the issue he was talking about at first is probably more related to actual legato. Guitar is a naturally choppy instrument with lots of ways to kill a note, so legato is classical guitarist speak for "control your right hand please thank you." Legato is sort of your baseline for a good right hand and something you want to have on the money for the fundamental stuff. That's the word I use with classical guitar students when I want them to have a tangible musical result to focus on rather than staring at their fingers and wondering if they're doing it right. Sometimes people get bogged down in the minutiae of the angle of the finger or pick or whatever, but when you focus on a musical result, the hands make a lot of those reflex-level corrections on their own. Slow and legato, slow and legato. In a couple weeks you're right as rain.
But but but
Slurring is hugely important for jazz. I slur allllllllll the time. There's often a rhythmic component to it, with slurs being directed into downbeats, though most guitarists don't do this as regularly as horn players do, because of the limitation imposed by string changes. Super super important.
One reason I suggested Jim was because, as modern guitarists go, he doesn't slur much at all in his early stuff but still sounds smooth as all get out. As opposed to someone like Benson or Pat Martino who are ridiculously clean but have that machine-gun articulation. For someone who slurs more, Wes would be a good one.
Also this. It is less of a guitar-istic technique of 'picking lighter' than a musical technique issue. I'll try to break down the facets to the feel: To have an authentic jazz feel, you need some command of 8th note legato feel. So you need to play 8th notes and imply an 8th note feel. If you focus on a hard quarter note feel, it sounds more rock blues and hoakey.
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^ Agreed.
Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
I get the impression that many people do not really understand the African aspect of what's going on rhythmically and only hear eights. Like that shifted quarter triplet that I once mentioned and Peter said he liked it but he had never used it before. You know where I got that from? Muddy Waters. Mud In Your Ear LP. Listened to that record a million of times.
Better listen to some old-time gospel music. Dizzy said he learned everything about rhythm "in the sanctified church" in South Carolina. Blues country.
Last edited by Bop Head; 10-16-2024 at 12:02 AM.
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Quincy can shuffle too.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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That's my take on it. The issue is not metul technique 'picking lighter' it's the sense of swing. Not to rag on his playing because I think it's good. But I think what he's asking about is the swing feel. To me, trying to play traditional jazz but tuning one's sense of swing like a rock blues shuffle with heavy staccato 1/4 note feel and lack of legato 1/8 note feel sounds very unattractive and inexperienced. That's just me! And that's my final take. Regardless if you want to take everything back to Africa Bop Head like you always do.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
@ Bobby: Oscar Brown Jr. is BTW the guy who wrote the lyrics to a composition by a certain Bobby Timmons.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Honor to whom honor is due.
And in a bigger picture mankind descends from Africa. Lucy was your granny too.
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That's wonderful Bop Head. As if you taking it back to Africa puts my advice to add more legato 8th note feel on the wrong side of the African roots platform.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
There is much more to it.
Listen to old boppers talking about rhythm, about the African six. It's not just Bop Head making it up because he has played a lot of reggae and funk in his life, together with Africans, "real" Africans from Nigeria and Senegal.
And regarding hard swing (I am to lazy now to search and give you all the material directly, do your homework): Google for the website on Pepper Adams. There is his autobiography online, type-writer facsimile. A youth friend of Barry Harris. He has something to say about hard swing. Look for that video where Charles McPherson (Barry Harris' first student) teaches at home. He is telling a saxophonist not to swing to hard but because of the way the instrument reacts. Look for Mike Longo interviews. He learned about rhythm directly from Dizzy. Who -- which I forgot to mention -- after growing up with the Babtist church later learned Cuban Santeria rhythms from people like Chano Pozo. Night In Tunisia anybody?
(And then people learn rhythmic patterns by heart from books. OMFG. That makes me smile a little -- to put it mildly ... Rhythm is probably the thing you should really learn from a teacher person to person if you don't get it naturally.)
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Yes, there are much more different rhythms to jazz than only 8th notes.
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I actually prefer rock blues feel to my jazz playing. More attack, staccato, all mixed in. I like guitarists who have more percussive approach. It seems in the 1930-50's that was the thing. Listening to jazz records with guitarists playing solos from that period there is not a big stretch to what Chuck Berry came up with later. I love it!
Not to be controversial, but in my view starting with Kurt Rosenwinkle (who's absolute great) is when jazz guitar took a turn to very mellow, almost classical legato approach, everything super smooth, very soft picking with a dreamy, ambient sound. I might be wrong, but that's when blues influences were gone. Of course, that's the sound of jazz guitar today, but I'm not a follower.
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
As far as the lighter picking goes, that's something I work on too. Not so much to always play lighter, but to have more room to make certain notes pop. When I hear good players, they're often really dynamic; quiet to really loud almost on a note to note basis (I'm really thinking Charlie Parker here).
I actually think the guitar sounds better when I'm not playing it hard all the time (it can sound choked). I want more of the woody tone of the guitar to come thru, which I think is better served with lighter/dynamic picking.
Ain't nuttin' wrong with the more forceful picking of blues and rock more, but the phrasing and dynamics have a different feel. They often will do that rake-into-a-note thing (fldldldlderraaaaawwwweee) that I don't hear jazz do as much.
Anyway, I think your playing pretty sounds good on both.
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Originally Posted by supersoul
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