Learning Jazz Guitar

[O'Hanlon]

Hi Everyone.
I'm a new kid on the block! Can anyone give me some advice?

Just to fill U in, here's a quick blog. Have been playing guitar for more years than I care to mention. All styles, from classical & flamenco, folk, onto Celtic, then Blues & Rock'N' Roll, then Swing and now Jazz. Most of the above has been played at sessions or with various bands except the jazz of course.

Now here is the dilemma.

Having spent some two years brushing up in great detail on Jazz theory- scales, patterns, chords, modes etc.etc., buying several jazz guitar tuition courses and spending many hours a day practicing, I decided there must be a shorter road to travel in order to be reasonably competent!
Every tutor seems to have a different approach, although of course there are common elements, but to me and many others it is confusing to say the least!

Having picked out the 'bones' of all the jazz courses I have subscribed to and using my common sense 'nouse' the simplest and most straightforward approach appears to be as follows:-

1. There are 7 modes. Five of which are really useful. So we learn the five patterns for these 5 modes based on the key of C.(all patterns are transposable and incorporate all the major scales we need)

2.We can then add chromatics as necessary to cover the harmonic and melodic minor keys as we play.

3. We learn and memorise the Blues & Pentatonic scales ( 5 patterns, again transposable).

4.We learn at least 5 chord shapes for Major,Minor,Minor seventh, Major seventh, Dominant seventh, b5's, and some dminished chords.

5. We practice all this in the keys we are most likely to use especially the Jazz keys for non-concert instruments.

6. We learn our repertoire using these elements(adding and taking away notes when required according to the piece)

7. We target chord tones when improvising, following appropriate scale patterns while moving through the changes.

8. We develop our comping and improvisation techniques by listening and using the above elements to achieve our aims.

This is obviously an over simplification of the amount of work involved but
IS THIS APPROACH SENSIBLE AND PRACTICAL.

PLEASE COMMENT

[m78w]

Hey O'Hanlon,
That sounds like a ton of work to try and wade through! I say simplify things, the easier something is to play the more fun you'll have in doing so!

Here's a good place to start, take a blues progress, a jazz blues as some call it, and work out the one octave mixolydian scale, with the added #7 for the bebop sound if you want.

So the jazz blues chord progression is:

F7/Bb7/F7/F7

Bb7/Bb7/F7/D7b9

Gm7/C7/F7D7b9/Gm7/C7

So that looks like a lot of chords, but in reality it's only four differnent chords, F7 Bb7 D7b9 and C7, Gm7 and C7 come from the same key, F major, so we can play a C mixo scale and it will work over both chords.

Now try this exercise, play your F mixolydian scale starting on the 8th fret of the 5th string, just one octave, so the fingering would be:

5th 2-4

4th 1-2-4

3rd 1-2-4

Now we need to play over the Bb7 chord in bar two, so play a Bb mixolydian scale on the 8th fret of the 4th string, one octave.

The fingering would be:

4th 2-4

3rd 1-2-4

2nd 1-2-4 (with a one fret shift to the right because of the B string tuning)

Then back to F7 for two bars, back to Bb7 for two bars, and back to F7 for a bar and we're at bar 8 and we haven't moved our hand at all and we've used the same fingering for each chord!

For D7b9 play the D mixolydian scale on the 10th fret of the 6th string and just lower the 2nd note.

So the fingering is:

6th 2-3

5th 1-2-4

4th 1-2-4

Then for C7 play the same fingering as Bb7 just start on the 10th fret of the 4th string instead of the 8th.

The most important thing for this, and anything else you learn in jazz, is to learn the fingerings/concept as quickly as possible and then start improvising with it. With this exercise you can probably work out those scale fingerings in a matter of minutes, then once you do put on band in the box or a play along and start improvising with them.

Once you can blow comfortably and hit every change in this position, start on the F mixo scale on the 6th string, than the 4th and third. You'd be suprised at how much your neck will open up by doing these blowing exercises.


Jazz is about improvising so make sure to spend time everyday practicing improvising. It's easy to get caught up running scales and learning fingerings for things, but in reality no one ever gets paid to play scales, they get paid, so to speak, to play tunes.

The tricky part to jazz is not learning all the scales and theory, that's just grunt work, for me the really hard part is taking the information learned and improvising with it in real time, following chord and key changes, and making it all sound good. And to me I have much more fun by practicing blowing over an F blues while keeping myself within certain fingerings or whatever than running up and down big scales all day.

But that's just my opinion, there's a million ways to learn this stuff, so try a bunch of different things and see what works best for you.
MW

[O'Hanlon]

Hi

Thanks a million m78w. Will digest and practice your suggestions.

Will B back to forum in due course.

Much appreciated info.

[O'Hanlon]

Hi again m78w

After briefly digesting your suggestions, which are great, can U advise if I use say the Dorian Mode in different starting positions, then this would work as well. I only ask this as it appears to me that the majority of the modes use the same patterns, only their starting notes are on different strings and frets! Hence the five usable mode patterns.

Your comments will be appreciated.

[m78w]

Yeah I would also explore the Dorian fingerings as well, once I was confident with the mixo fingerings. If you were going to do this I would think of them as the iim7 chord for every V7 chord.

So F7 is V, then Cm7 is iim7. So for every F7 chord in the blues you could also play a C Dorian scale.

For Bb7, V, then Fm7 is iim7. Note that if you want to keep things from jumping around too much you could play Fmixo for F7, then F Dorian for Bb7!

For D7b9 you could use Am7b5, or A Locrian, over this chord. This scale uses both the F# and Eb that so important to the D7b9 sound.

Then for the C7 you could use it's relative iim7, Gm7, G Dorian scale.

So you could play any or all of those scales over the F blues. Just keep in mind that the more options you give yourself the more thinking you have to do when you're blowing. I think a good approach would be to really master the mixo modes, then when you can blow all over the neck in those modes, slowly add one of the dorian modes, then two, then three etc.

That way you don't get overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to blow on a blues, and you will be making music right from day one. Which is a great confidence builder!

MW

[O'Hanlon]

Hi m78w

Thanks once again. Your help is greatly appreciated. One last point on this subject, which is one that keeps coming up. Would you agree U can use the same 5 patterns over 5 modes? i.e. Mixolydian,Dorian,Phrygian,Aeolian, and Locrian, but with different root notes?

[m78w]

Yes you could use all five modes, but to me that's a ton to think about, especially when some of the chords are only one bar long. And once the tempo gets up around 200+ things get even harder. So I tend to stick to one or two, that way I can focus on my lines, the time, rhythm, the band etc rather than thinking through all the modes and which one works best, by then the chord has changed!

MW

[O'Hanlon]

Hi m78w

I take your point. Thanks.

[Goofsus4]

Good advice, as always, from Matt.

Although your list is very long and seems daunting, it's really not when you consider that most people probably spread all that out over several years of learning. I'd say you are spot on. Ultimately that's what everyone who learns music does. Some people learn less of it, perhaps, because they have a better ear and more talent, but they use that stuff even if they don't know it.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother learning all this stuff. I can grab my axe, sit down with my digital recorder, and compose a nice piece of original music any time I want. So, why do I bother learning standards, and complex chord voicings, and all that stuff when I can make music without any of that, with just my ear and some trial and error. I honestly don't know. I guess it's because I feel like I need to be able to play other people's music to widen out my options for creating my own music. I want to learn all of that stuff so I can play in more styles. I suppose it's analogous to learning calculus. If you are smart enough, you can certainly sit down, for a very long time, and re-derive hundreds of years of mathematics yourself and come to the same conclusion. Or, you can study published works for a few years and then take the rest of the time you saved and apply that theory to create something.

[derek]

O'Hanlon,

Welcome to the group. There are a couple of things I would add or mention regarding your list. First is the idea of "jazz keys". I would ditch that notion immediately and practice EVERYTHING around the circle of 4ths.

If you get to where you are playing with others, the last thing you want to happen is they call a tune you know, but in a key you are not familiar with. So every scale, chord shape, lick, arpeggio, around the circle, so frankly you won't care what key, as you can play in all of them with mostly equal competency.

The next thing is the whole chord/scale trap. Scales are only one way, and in my opinion least effective way to get at playing through changes. I find scales a bit cumbersome compared to triads and arpeggios. Guys get into the idea that you play X scale over Y chord, and frankly, I don't see that as improvisation, but paint by numbers. I also get tired of hearing that 1/2 step, whole step interval thing in guys solos. I prefer larger interval leaps for a more melodic sound. Check the melody lines of standards. There are always larger leaps in between smaller ones to break things up and make it interesting.

The other thing I didn't see mentioned was aquiring a collection of licks, whether yours or some you get from books/records, etc. Jazz is a pretty distinct language, and we all need some vocabulary. Dirk has some really good lessons here for licks and usage. The idea of taking a handful of good licks and knowing how to apply them in a myriad of ways is maximizing our fretboard time.

The tough part about guitar to me is the muscle memory monkey work. Getting stuff under our fingers. Once we do that, then learning how to apply that stuff in a variety of ways, and changing feel, phrasing, etc will increase your mileage.

Hopefully this stuff is helpful. Stick around and ask lots of questions. Matt already addressed your list above. He and several others are very knowledgeable and helpful here. Good luck

[Goofsus4]

The next thing is the whole chord/scale trap. Scales are only one way, and in my opinion least effective way to get at playing through changes. I find scales a bit cumbersome compared to triads and arpeggios. Guys get into the idea that you play X scale over Y chord, and frankly, I don't see that as improvisation, but paint by numbers. I also get tired of hearing that 1/2 step, whole step interval thing in guys solos. I prefer larger interval leaps for a more melodic sound. Check the melody lines of standards. There are always larger leaps in between smaller ones to break things up and make it interesting.

But don't you think that arps and triads just get a bid predictable, too? If you just use chord tones, then you are hamstringing yourself big time. So, you have to add chromatics. When you do that, you are now playing a scale, and, you are then playing a different "scale" over each chord, aren't you? I think scales get a bad rap. People just don't know how to use them if they sound predictable.

[derek]

You are right, no matter what device you use to play over changes, if you are just running up and down scales, arps, triad, etc, you aren't going to sound very musical.

However, I DO think it is easier to accomplish running changes with triads and arps due to their stripping down nonessential tones, which can be added back in one note at a time.

Scales getting a bad rap? Man, all I hear is scales, scales, scales when it comes to guitar. At the end of the day, any of the above are just a collection of notes to incorporate in your playing, I just think it is tougher to make scales sound like you are moving thru a chord progression than other devices.

Guys I know who are pro players say they aren't thinking about scales or arps, etc when blowing, they are hearing the tune and responding. So whatever you use, I guess the idea is to get it down so well that you forget about it and just play.

[O'Hanlon]

Hi Derek, Matt & all

Thanks 4 your input. What seems to work for me is learning the melody, then fleshing it out with Jazz chords, then improvise using the melody as a base, addding notes and phrases drawing on my previous stored knowledge of chord structures, modes and scales, but being brave enough to throw in chromatics as well, with a return made each time to the key centre to resolve the licks and phrases. This still needs many hours,days, months of work on each piece to establish more interest.

The biggest snag in the whole process is the finger memory. Any suggestions to speed up this process? It seems to take me about a year to be able to play a piece without thought, and rely entirely on the finger memory. Of course I am learning more than one piece at a time. The style I favour is chord/melody/fingerstyle.

Thanks everyone

[O'Hanlon]

Thanks again for all your input m78w.
After playing through your suggestion using the Mixolydian mode, which seems to work out O.K.,but I can not quite follow the logic here.
If we play an F mixo over an F7 chord and a Bb mixo over a Bb7, why play a C mixo over a Gm7 & C7 which are both chords in the key of F. Why not play an F mixo as well.
Also if we can play a C mixo over a Gm7 & C7, then surely we can play an F mixo over a Bb7. Perhaps you can and your workout is just one possible solution,yes?
Your fingerings are neatly part of the 5 modal patterns which is a great relief. Furthermoe,I would guess rightly or wrongly that you can play the key centre mixo over any chord in its key and also the mixo 5 steps up alphabetically. e.g. F or C mixo in the key of F.
Is that correct? The second mixo beong 5 steps up from the C ionian mode. I don't want to get too complex on theory, as playing is the most important thing, but it always good to solve a puzzle.

[m78w]

Hey O'Hanlon,
You're on the right track but are a little confused about when to use the modes, I think it's just a matter of clearing a few things up and you'll totally get it!

Mixolydian is the 5th mode of the major scale, so C major starting on G. It can only be used over a 7th chord, so in C it would be G7. That's why you can't use F mixo over Gm7 and C7. You COULD however use F major over Gm7 and C7 since they are both in the key of F major, but for the sake of this exercise it's good to stick to the same mode for each chord, ie. mixolydian.

So in the key of F you can only use C mixo, and that's also why you can't use F mixo over Bb7. You can only use Bb Mixo over Bb7.

I hope that helps clear things up, if not let me know.

MW

[Dorian Gray]

Hi,
I have enthusiastically read this thread. I was able to follow it pretty easily, that's a credit to all you experienced players. What suggestions would you give to the beginning jazz player? Again thanks a lot, I've learned quite a bit from this thread.

[m78w]

Hey Dorian,
For a beginner I would suggest to learn one thing and improvise with it right away. For example, learn a one octave C major scale starting on the 5th string, 3rd fret. Then put band in the box on or a metronome and improvise with it. See how it feels under your fingers, how it sounds, what different sounds you can get out of it, what the notes that aren't in the scale sound like against the scale notes etc.

Then learn something else and improv with that. You'd be suprised how quickly these things add up. One thing to avoid is the thought that you need to know all your scales/chords/arpeggios all over the neck before you can improvise. Jazz is all about improv, so start practicing improvising right from day one and then when you get to a level where you're playing with people improv won't be this scary mysterious thing, it's just part of your everday praticing.

MW

[O'Hanlon]

Hi m78w
I thought I was reasonbly bright, but this defeats me. I just don't seem to grasp it. Can you please explain differently. Thanks again.

[derek]

The way Matt is describing modal playing is called derivative. You think about the modes and how they relate to the key and chord at hand. I am a little dense and find this method a bit too cumbersome for me.

I prefer the parallel approach, which sees each mode as its own distinct scale pattern. So there is a mixolydian scale pattern that can be used over any dominant chord. So rather than trying to figure out how they all relate, just play mixolydian (major scale with b7) when you see a dominant chord.

Same for the rest of the modes. Each mode then has its own formula and therefore its own distinct pattern. I consider all minor scales by comparing them to the natural minor scale (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). I also see the others in light of the major scale, or home base perhaps. So here are the formuale for minor scales:

Dorian (brightest of minors) 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phrygian 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian 1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

So, I see natural minor (aeolian), then I see these other tones that are avialable for color. So I lean on my natural minor patterns and add the above color tones as desired.

For major:

Mixolydian 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Lydian 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7

I also see the option of the #4 (b5) or b7 when playing the major scale. So I guess the utility of this sort of thinking keeps you from having to make the extra mental step of seeing how these chords are related to play the proper mode, and you can just see them as independent patterns, learn them that way, and play them that way.

We can apply the above logic to harmonic minor and its modes, and melodic minor and modes also.

Again, this is just another way of viewing the modes, I don't think there is right or wrong here. It can be pretty confusing, so I am of the opinion of chosing whichever method works for you.

[O'Hanlon]

Thanks Derek. I too like to work with pattens.

To be perfectly honest I find that a lot of people including myself, being a designer as well as a guitarist, see things more clearly visually and aurally.

The mode patterns you refer to I have visually represented on fret grids. The same pattens are used for five modes excluding Lydian & Ionian(which is of course C Major scale).

On each grid the root of the mode is highlighted. To use a pattern as a different mode, just move the root as the five pattens are equally applicable to five modes. This shortens the thought process from brain to fingers.

From what you advise, for which I thank you, I can still use this method altering the odd note to make a mode fit.

So if we use mixo for Dom7ths and Major for Maj 7ths, what do we use over minor sevenths, flat 5ths and diminished? Can you advise. I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible.

[Goofsus4]

Modes were baffling to me until started thinking of them as just scales. That is very important, because a "mode" can be played all over the neck just like any other scale can.

Just forget about how the modes were derived and forget about any rules for their use. That's where all the confusion stems from.

Just think of each mode as a scale with a specific intervallic formula.

So, as others have said, the mixolydian scale is just a scale with the formula is 1,2,3,4.5,6,b7.

Aeolian is just a scale with the formula 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7.

And so on. Learn and understand the formulas for each mode and not just the pattern. Once you do that, any confusion you have about the modes and what chords they sound best over will probably disappear. Then play them to see what they sound like over various chords types.

Over particular chords, each mode will give a particular tonal flavor. Phrigian will sound spanish/flamenco, aeolian will sound classical/latin, dorian will sound bluesy, etc. If they are played over the wrong chords, they'll just sound plain bad and you'll in very short order figure out which modes work with what chord qualities. Or you can follow the guidelines you read about, but it's important not to get caught up in the theory. Play them yourself and you'll demonstrate how and when they can be used to make good music in no time.

[m78w]

Glad you're keeping things simple!

For m7 we normally use the Dorian mode, second mode of major, so a C major scale starting on D.

For m7b5 we normally use the Locrian mode, 7th mode of major, so a C major scale starting on B.

For dim7 we use the whole/half diminished scale. The scale starting on C would be.

C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

MW

[derek]

Glad you're keeping things simple!

For m7 we normally use the Dorian mode, second mode of major, so a C major scale starting on D.

For m7b5 we normally use the Locrian mode, 7th mode of major, so a C major scale starting on B.

For dim7 we use the whole/half diminished scale. The scale starting on C would be.

C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

MW

Of course, Matt is right on. However, for me, dorian is a bit too bright for my ears to play over the ii. I prefer a bit darker tone. You can think of playing minor ideas over both the ii and the V, then resolving to the I. Or you can do the converse, and play dominant ideas over both the ii and the V, then resolve to the I.

We have talked about this on other threads recently. Guys like Pat Martino convert everything to minor, whereas Joe Pass really played alot of V I, ignoring the ii. This is a very simplified way of describing what these guys tend to do, but you can see that you don't have to address every single change, and that you can link some together with one idea at times.

[O'Hanlon]

Thank you once again.
Does your forum site allow graphics? They could solve a few problems of communication.