The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Yea... take some lessons from a pro drummer. Most conversations need to start with... what it means to Groove, be in the groove etc..

    Simple version... a pattern that repeats or implies the repeat of a pattern. Once you can play patterns and imply patterns, you develop..."Feel". Feel is what makes Grooves Lock in. Feel comes from being able to use the groove or pattern of what your playing, and also reflect the Style of what your playing, swing, latin etc.

    And now the difficult part... (I'm joking). But it's also being able to hear and develop longer sections of space. So not just having patterns within a 2 or 4 bar phrase. Being able to have patterns with 4, 8, 12 16 bars etc.

    Ex... like in an A A B A tune... having a pattern that uses all four sections and then starts over. Multiple levels of subdividing with organization that reflect the "style" and "Groove".

    It's almost like just playing versions of Licks and creating Patterns with those licks. You know what's coming and where.... played or just implied.

    So that's the physical somewhat just technical BS. Just like you know when the "Form" starts over... you also have "targets" within that "form" that also start over.

    The better player one becomes... the more parts of a groove you can use or develop.
    Chops help be able to subdivide... which helps develop... Feel.

    So this is the somewhat basic part... ya need these skills... rhythmically. The more difficult or next step is applying these concepts ... Harmonically.

    emanresu... pick a couple tunes and we can make examples. I quit working with some bands and will have some time while changing directions.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Reg, I sometimes joke that your posts are kooky, but my mind is kind of blown with this one. How feel can be boosted by your command and experience with patterns, subdivisions, targets, form, etc, and it's all related. In other words, your command of notes also helps your feel, not only general rhythmic sense.
    Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 10-06-2024 at 11:56 AM.

  4. #53

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    LOL yea.. I am a little crazy... maybe not just a little. But that being said.... I groove... like most players dream about. Especially LIVE. I make average players sound like monsters. I know and understand how to raise the level of performance... how to make the average become exciting etc...

    And it's just standard Technical BS. Being aware of compositional standard guidelines and concepts of using a Reference... with relationships and developing them within organized space...Form. A musically designed system of performing in a jazz style.

    I do have chops... rhythmic chops and this allows me the freedom to perform... play tunes in this style.

    But I'm still at best an average pro. And tons of better players... but not many better at being in a groove and locking it in. So when were talking about Grooves... I can cover as well as talk about...LOL

  5. #54

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    I haven't read the whole thread (apologies) but I agree with the poster who suggested going out dancing, and I'll take it a step further: take dance lessons. If you dance like Elaine in Seinfeld, more of that will not help.



    Actually learning to feel the groove in your body and express it appropriately is the goal.

    I played in funk and soul cover bands for years, so I've got the groove in me and it's never letting go.

    My first experience with this kind of playing was in a show band that had choreographed routines ala the Temptations.

    Years before that, I fell into a job as a ballroom dance instructor - as a college student, I answered an ad for a dance studio that was looking for entry-level instructors. There was a cattle-call audition and they picked about a dozen of us to get full-time instruction for a couple weeks, learning the basics of waltz, foxtrot, rhumba, tango and cha-cha. We then would teach people who answered the "three free dance lessons" ad, with the goal being to sign them up for courses of paid private and group lessons.

    I had played music for some ten years before that, so I had the ability to count, but I knew nothing about dance. I got picked from the lineup, got some 40 hours of instruction, and then started teaching entry-level students and signing them up for courses with the pro instructors. I taught ballroom for a bit less than a year before hanging it up for my jealous girlfriend, who, although I never gave her a moment's worry, was very threatened by my constant interactions with lots of women as teachers and students.

    As a result of these various activities, I gained a love for ballroom and other kinds of dance, and I learned to feel time in my body. And I also learned what dancers (as opposed to non-dancers) are looking for in music. So, yeah, learning to dance and going out dancing is a great way to develop your ability to groove.

    The other thing that will really help your time feel (and, by extension, your groove) is recording. The tape doesn't lie. On playback you'll hear exactly how well you are fitting in with the groove or not... plus, playing to a click track and doing punch-ins and overdubs requires you to match tempo in a very precise way. If you can groove to a click, you've got it! One way to practice this would be to play with a metronome on 2 and 4 or playing with a backing track, neither of which will slow down or speed up to accomodate imperfections in your time feel.

    HTH

    SJ
    Last edited by starjasmine; 10-06-2024 at 03:53 PM.

  6. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    emanresu... pick a couple tunes and we can make examples. I quit working with some bands and will have some time while changing directions.
    Take the A train, because it's next on my todo list. Or maybe "Yes and No". Footprints.. how to sound lazy but still groovy?

  7. #56
    To SJ,
    It is absolutely amazing to see how precice the top dancers are timewise.
    I know that they work their behinds off to get there faster.. probably because the careers are so much shorter

  8. #57

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    It helps to grow up in a Latin American environment because you will be surrounded by music with a groove all the time.

    Today, as I was busking, Don Caramello, one of the singers from my former band Les Babacools, happened to come jogging along. He and his brother El Criminal grew up partly in Peru and Ecuador. They both groove like crazy, regardless of whether they sing in Spanish or German.






  9. #58

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    It helps to grow up in a African environment because you will be surrounded by music with a groove all the time.


  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    I haven't read the whole thread (apologies) but I agree with the poster who suggested going out dancing, and I'll take it a step further: take dance lessons. If you dance like Elaine in Seinfeld, more of that will not help.


    Actually learning to feel the groove in your body and express it appropriately is the goal.

    I played in funk and soul cover bands for years, so I've got the groove in me and it's never letting go.

    My first experience with this kind of playing was in a show band that had choreographed routines ala the Temptations.

    Years before that, I fell into a job as a ballroom dance instructor - as a college student, I answered an ad for a dance studio that was looking for entry-level instructors. There was a cattle-call audition and they picked about a dozen of us to get full-time instruction for a couple weeks, learning the basics of waltz, foxtrot, rhumba, tango and cha-cha. We then would teach people who answered the "three free dance lessons" ad, with the goal being to sign them up for courses of paid private and group lessons.

    I had played music for some ten years before that, so I had the ability to count, but I knew nothing about dance. I got picked from the lineup, got some 40 hours of instruction, and then started teaching entry-level students and signing them up for courses with the pro instructors. I taught ballroom for a bit less than a year before hanging it up for my jealous girlfriend, who, although I never gave her a moment's worry, was very threatened by my constant interactions with lots of women as teachers and students.

    As a result of these various activities, I gained a love for ballroom and other kinds of dance, and I learned to feel time in my body. And I also learned what dancers (as opposed to non-dancers) are looking for in music. So, yeah, learning to dance and going out dancing is a great way to develop your ability to groove.

    The other thing that will really help your time feel (and, by extension, your groove) is recording. The tape doesn't lie. On playback you'll hear exactly how well you are fitting in with the groove or not... plus, playing to a click track and doing punch-ins and overdubs requires you to match tempo in a very precise way. If you can groove to a click, you've got it! One way to practice this would be to play with a metronome on 2 and 4 or playing with a backing track, neither of which will slow down or speed up to accomodate imperfections in your time feel.

    HTH

    SJ
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    Last edited by benhatchins; 10-24-2024 at 05:24 AM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    I haven't read the whole thread (apologies) but I agree with the poster who suggested going out dancing, and I'll take it a step further: take dance lessons. If you dance like Elaine in Seinfeld, more of that will not help.
    Lol

    Actually learning to feel the groove in your body and express it appropriately is the goal. I played in funk and soul cover bands for years, so I've got the groove in me and it's never letting go.
    Nice post. My first instrument was bass and a lot of the repertoire is groove oriented and I could never get into it. With Hammond I could not do it. I just can't get into it rhythm wise 1st and notes 2nd. I'm more the emotion of the notes and the rhythms follow. But rhythm is important so I'm trying to improve obviously. The drum pad has been helping.

    I also hate dancing. It does not make me feel good. I don't want to be moving around all weirdly with other people. But again, still trying to theoretically be able to. Because how can I be a musician and be diametrically opposed to dancing lol. Again, the drum pad is helping. Seems like pop dancing is all arms. Don't want to move your head too much because that's dorky, don't want to move your hips too much as a man because that looks gross, you move to the pulse of the beat with your lower body, it's all arms. They do the subdividing and create the expression and ideas.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    One enemy of groove is not having the chops or confidence to play the part well. Or is that two enemies of groove?

    It's not going to groove if you're lagging behind.
    Absolutely. It ain't grooving if you don't have it worked into your hands/body and you can't physically execute it in good feel.