Groove comes and goes

[Christian Miller]

Well depends really. Sometimes you want to be consistently on top, sometimes consistently behind by just the right amount. The main thing as I understand is consistency. (And if you can’t play right in the middle, I daresay you can’t do the other things.)

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[Bop Head]

Well depends really. Sometimes you want to be consistently on top, sometimes consistently behind by just the right amount. The main thing as I understand is consistency. (And if you can’t play right in the middle, I daresay you can’t do the other things.)

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If you are playing solo and not rhythm you can even play around consciously with the amount of being behind, before or on top. Or it happens rather subconsciously to be precise but in a controlled way which means you are listening to your self all the time and adapt accordingly to what you hear.

Groove is a physical thing, not an intellectual one. If you are walking you are also not thinking all the time "Now I have to put my right foot in front and now the left one.". *) The conscious brain is much to slow for controlling body movements. And if you stumble you will immediately realize it and your body will react with counter-movements.

And I'll repeat it again and again: Blues is the teacher.



*) Unless you have a physical handicap. My girlfriend's best friend has a little bit of spasticity in one of her legs and if she is tired that leg may fold suddenly and she will fall to the ground if she does not control her movements consciously.

[Bop Head]

Atm, I have a 3-hour sleep deprivation and feeling numb. No groove happening at all.
Hence my theory got proven: it is all about feeling. And energy.
edit: somewhere here someone mentioned that time and feel are not the same. That seemed plausible but it kinda becomes obvious at some point.

Anyway, the OPs question was "What's your experience with that?"

A state of being over-tired is the easiest starting point for getting into a mental state of flow for me.

[DawgBone]

Sounds like university of North Texas lol.


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That's funny. We had one of those north TX guys at the school who taught jazz 1 but the guy I am referencing was a bone player who came up in brazilian/latin bands. Total ball breaker about meter. At the time he was in a dark place and made sure people around him existed there with him.....being a a whiplash level instructor cost him his tenure. Glad I played guitar, was able to fly under the radar in his class. He was def anti groove.

[Mick-7]

The groove has to be in you and has to be available immediately.

"Let that boy boogie-woogie, it's in him and it's got to come out!" - John Lee Hooker

[Bop Head]

"Let that boy boogie-woogie, it's in him and it's got to come out!" - John Lee Hooker

I shook his hand in 1991. Probably I got infected, haha.

But joking aside actually before that I was listening to African-American blues for one year allmost exclusively (John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee, Jimi Hendrix w/ Curtis Knight and the Squires, Sunnyland Slim, Howlin' Wolf etc. etc.) because I found the pop music of the late 80ies so boring and plastic.

And later I played a lot of funk and reggae live with a band.

[Bop Head]

Very interesting. I have heard this advice before but never really follow through with it. Instead I was improvising with a bunch of different rhythms at a time (2 minutes for each rhythm). Sounds promising

Listening to and playing along with reggae tracks (meaning rhythm guitar) is a good lesson for how note length relates to groove and how different parts are intertwined and locked in.

From rocksteady ...

... over classic grooves ...

... to more modern hiphop influenced grooves.

The changes are not too complicated to figure out and you can concentrate on locking into the groove.

[RLetson]

Mention of James Brown reminded me of a joke-not-a-joke:

A guitarist is applying for a job with the Famous Flames, and the band interviewer says, "Can you play this?" And plays the signature "Chicken" guitar lick.

The applicant says, "Sure," and echoes it.

And the interviewer says, "For two hours?"

[AKA]

In the words of the great Victor Wooten “You can’t hold no groove if you ain’t got no pocket.”

[emanresu]

This might be sleep deprevation talking but..
There is a perfect untrained sense of time within people, something universally given to everyone.. at least most people.
So, when we try and learn to be good boys and play in time, we kinda are struggling with connecting the deep, inner thing with the surface.
Hm?

[DawgBone]

This might be sleep deprevation talking but..
There is a perfect untrained sense of time within people, something universally given to everyone.. at least most people.

Bahaha, hire a few drummers at random and get back to me on that. Most people have shit meter.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I finally came to terms with my shit meter when I got my drum practice pad and sticks and I couldn't go wap wap, a single stroke roll, in good time and feel with total control of my hands, wrists, and arms.

To me, some basic drumming just on a pad is essential for focusing on rhythm with time, feel, and technique.

[pamosmusic]

I mean yeah … some musicians have bad time but it’s a function of what they practice on the instrument. When I’m working with kids and they’re having trouble subdividing, I make them stand up and walk.

Left foot downbeat, right foot upbeat. Or stomp downbeat, lift upbeat.

Guess how many people I’ve run into who can’t subdivide with their feet?

zero.

people have great time. The instruments tend to be a barrier.

[PMB]

I mean yeah … some musicians have bad time but it’s a function of what they practice on the instrument. When I’m working with kids and they’re having trouble subdividing, I make them stand up and walk.

Left foot downbeat, right foot upbeat. Or stomp downbeat, lift upbeat.

Guess how many people I’ve run into who can’t subdivide with their feet?

zero.

people have great time. The instruments tend to be a barrier.

There's a really good variation that a drummer demonstrated to me many years ago:

Stand with your guitar held up by a strap. Start with both feet together and play a long, looped line/chord sequence in 4/4. I started out with Jimmy Nolen grooves from classic James Brown tracks.

Once it settles, lift your left foot as the cycle comes to the end of a repetition. Move it out further to the left and place it back down on the '1'. Now lift the right foot and bring it across to the left leg. Stomp that foot next to the other on the '2'. Reverse the process so that the right foot now moves across to the far right for beat 3 and the left foot follows it to stamp down on beat 4. Repeat the process until you feel and hear yourself locking in tightly with the imaginary snare (or real snare if you choose to play along with an existing track).

I remember as a kid watching footage of Motown guitarists making these kind of moves and thinking it was purely choreographed theatre but in effect, it turns you into a human metronome with clicks on the backbeat.

EDIT: I'm left handed/footed so starting with the right foot might be easier for anyone else keen to try this out.

[pamosmusic]

There's a really good variation that a drummer demonstrated to me many years ago:

Stand with your guitar held up by a strap. Start with both feet together and play a long, looped line/chord sequence in 4/4. I started out with Jimmy Nolen grooves from classic James Brown tracks.

Once it settles, lift your left foot as the cycle comes to the end of a repetition. Move it out further to the left and place it back down on the '1'. Now lift the right foot and bring it across to the left leg. Stomp that foot next to the other on the '2'. Reverse the process so that the right foot now moves across to the far right for beat 3 and the left foot follows it to stamp down on beat 4. Repeat the process until you feel and hear yourself locking in tightly with the snare.

I remember as a kid watching footage of Motown guitarists making these kind of moves and thinking it was purely choreographed theatre but in effect, it turns you into a human metronome with clicks on the backbeat.

I'm working a lot with elementary age students and not guitarists, so we've been doing a lot of moving to things. Blues exclusively so far. Walking with the pulse, clapping on beat one of each four-bar phrase and either changing directions or rushing to a seat for a musical chairs type thing when the form flips over. Keep feet going and hands clapping while they sit, and then stand up and walk again when the form flips over again.

[Bop Head]

There's a really good variation that a drummer demonstrated to me many years ago:

Stand with your guitar held up by a strap. Start with both feet together and play a long, looped line/chord sequence in 4/4. I started out with Jimmy Nolen grooves from classic James Brown tracks.

Once it settles, lift your left foot as the cycle comes to the end of a repetition. Move it out further to the left and place it back down on the '1'. Now lift the right foot and bring it across to the left leg. Stomp that foot next to the other on the '2'. Reverse the process so that the right foot now moves across to the far right for beat 3 and the left foot follows it to stamp down on beat 4. Repeat the process until you feel and hear yourself locking in tightly with the imaginary snare (or real snare if you choose to play along with an existing track).

I remember as a kid watching footage of Motown guitarists making these kind of moves and thinking it was purely choreographed theatre but in effect, it turns you into a human metronome with clicks on the backbeat.

EDIT: I'm left handed/footed so starting with the right foot might be easier for anyone else keen to try this out.

I am moving in similar ways all the time while busking and on stage -- depending on the groove. I think it started when I started to copy the movements of reggae musicians and it developed further naturally when I started to do a lot of busking seven years ago.

[emanresu]

Guess how many people I’ve run into who can’t subdivide with their feet?

zero.

My case, working for 17 years with young students, that number is exactly 1

[pamosmusic]

I am moving in similar ways all the time while busking and on stage -- depending on the groove. I think it started when I started to copy the movements of reggae musicians and it developed further naturally when I started to do a lot of busking seven years ago.

Get a zoom video recorder.

[pamosmusic]

My case, working for 17 years with young students, that number is exactly 1

Yeah. Of course some students have some physical limitations. There are some developmental things too with motor skills and stuff that are a factor too. But yeah. Moving is the ticket, apparently. (good music teachers know this, I know. I'm late to the party, but it's so helpful)

[PMB]

I am moving in similar ways all the time while busking and on stage -- depending on the groove. I think it started when I started to copy the movements of reggae musicians and it developed further naturally when I started to do a lot of busking seven years ago.

Interesting. The reggae 'one drop' pattern, popularised by Bob Marley and the Wailers, is exceptional in that the snare is placed on the 3rd beat. Do you alter the pattern or perhaps halve the tempo?

[Bop Head]

Interesting. The reggae 'one drop' pattern, popularised by Bob Marley and the Wailers, is exceptional in that the snare is placed on the 3rd beat. Do you alter the pattern or perhaps halve the tempo?

You do the steps only on the three. Heavy steps that make Babylon shake. I learned this from watching Ethiopian Rastafarians dancing in our sound system.

[Bop Head]

^ This is the advanced version:

But you need loose hips to do it. Like the title of that Funkadelic album: "Free your mind and your ass follow."

I was told that individuality of movements, e.g. the way you walk, plays a big role in Jamaican culture. As can be seen in the movie "Rockers" from 1978.

[Bobby Timmons]

Bop Head is an authority on SOUL.

[Bop Head]

Bop Head is an authority on SOUL.

Hahaha

[voxo]

Peter Bernstein tip - don’t just set the click to tempos like 160, 180, 200, try in between tempos like 167, 193 and 202

not me more like 135 130 125