Transcriging entire solos then moving on to the next one?

[bobheff]

Hi all,

After many years of hearing that "transcription" is essential to learning jazz (or, at least, very useful) I have made a beginning at it: I can now (mostly) play Lester Young's famous solo on Lady Be Good at about 3/4 of the tempo and will spend a few more days (weeks?) getting it up to full speed.

For the record, having seen threads on this forum devolve into a discussion on what the word "transcription" means, in my case I'm talking about learning the solo by ear (for me, slowing it down using software if necessary) but not writing it down in notation (which may be a useful thing to do, but it is not something I'm going to do right now). So, it's all trans and no scribe for now.

I've quite enjoyed the process and it has felt good to play some "real" jazz on the instrument. My instinct is to pick a few more solos I like and do the same again. I've made a list of 10 or so.

There's a (large) part of me hoping that spending time on transcription in this sense (learning several entire solos by ear) will be benificial in-and-of itself. Certainly I think this is true in terms of technique: in order to play the Lester Young solo I've had to spend time fixing problems with my plectrum technique and with how I finger lines that I didn't even know existed! However, what I'm really hoping is that the language will seep into my ears and fingers by way of this process.

But for everybody online advocating for learning entire solos by ear there is somebody else advocating for only lifting licks (and then taking them through all keys, constructing variations on them, etc.) as the only way that one will really learn. Similarly, many people wlll argue that learning to play a solo by ear is all well and good but the real payoff comes when you analyse it to understand how it works (and, in this case, writing it out would probably help). (It seems to me that this latter approach also usually amounts, at the end of the day after one's analysis, to isolating favourite licks and going ham on them.)

In light of the fact that both of these are probably true, at some level at least, is there much to be said for learning to play a bunch of solos (not writing them down and with minimal analysis) beyond the fun of doing it (and the happy technique side-effects I mentioned)?

I've never enjoyed learning "licks" and so have never really done so. (I probably should). The benefits of analysing a solo that has been learned is clear to me, but sitting down and making sense of the Prez solo I've just learned is probably a few months work for me, given my time & knowledge constraints.

Incidentally, as a non-professional musician with a job and kids, one of the things I liked about learning the Prez solo was that I could make progress (e.g. learn a new phrase) in only a few minutes a day & a few weeks later I had a whole solo down. This sense of achievable progress has been refreshing after years of feeling as if learning to play jazz was a task involving more time and effort than I have to give.

[BreckerFan]

Personally, I'm with you on this method of learning a whole solo and getting it up to speed with the record. I think there's a lot of value in honing in on specific vocabulary, but I think unless you have a very specific goal with that approach, you get more out of playing whole solos. You get the vocabulary work, but also work on time feel, hearing the arc of a solo, etc. And I do think all of those things will eventually find their way into your playing in one way or another.

Ultimately though, with whatever approach you're taking, if you feel like it's helping you, keep doing it.

[starjasmine]

Whatever works for you is what works for you. It doesn't really matter what works for someone else...
An approach that keeps you happy and motivated to keep playing is more valuable than one which feels burdensome and difficult!
Have fun!
SJ

[pamosmusic]

Yeah the best practice is the practice you’ll do.

Im with the above folks also … learning licks and learning solos are both good. The ear work on its own is worth doing even if you learn them and never play them again.

For me, I learn whole solos and then kind of hone in on stuff I like and really take apart the couple things that I’m really into. I think the important part though is that the process is kind of always osmosis. Whether you’re learning a bunch of fingerings for licks and working them deliberately into your vocabulary, or learning a whole solo and then moving on, your expectation that the phrasing and stuff just kind of “seep into your playing” is the right one I think. Probably some detail work will hurry that along but the nature of improvising kind of prevents anything from transferring to your playing whole. But anything you really sit with will find its way in, usually in unexpected ways.

I think I’d say if you just transcribe whole solos, then you’d need to make sure you’re sitting and doing some line building of your own and working on small parts of tunes and stuff. And if you just do licks, then you’ll need to have some means of working on incorporating those into larger stretches of improvisation.

So anyway … whole solos is awesome for all the intangible things — phrasing, space, structure, whatever. And licks are great for more of the nuts and bolts vocabulary. But both are good and will probably get you to the same place by different routes.

[Chonker]

FWIW - I’ve done numerous transcriptions in the manner you’ve described.

As well as learning five Parker heads.

Additionally I’ve memorized ten ii/V/I lines (5 major and 5 minor).

None of that stuff ever showed up when I attempted to improvise even though I warmed up with it daily.

I remember, after many years of practice, staring at the first two bars of All of Me (CMaj7) and I couldn’t think of a single thing to play.

That’s when I finally understood that I’d never be able to improvise Jazz and threw in the towel on even trying.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love listening to Jazz even if I recognize that I’ll never be able to play it. And that’s why I still creep on this forum (and others). Hoping someone may crack the code for me eventually.

So, speaking as someone who flunked out, I’d say the most important thing you can do is whatever produces the desired results. My guess is that’s way more analysis and composition than you may be interested in.

But seriously, what do I know?

[Jonah]

I picked up by ear only two solos more or less completely …
I did only because it was fun .. I loved it so much and wanted to catch the spirit

otherwise I only picked separate spots that I liked here and there

[digger]

I do exactly what you do, and I enjoy it, too. My issue is remembering the solos afterwards. It's okay during the days / weeks / months of the actual transcription, but a few transcriptions later the earlier transcriptions start to fade ..

My other issue is that single line stuff is generally ok, especially with Transcribe, but when players start using octaves and chords... especially chords, I struggle.

Derek

[Christian Miller]

Hi all,

After many years of hearing that "transcription" is essential to learning jazz (or, at least, very useful) I have made a beginning at it: I can now (mostly) play Lester Young's famous solo on Lady Be Good at about 3/4 of the tempo and will spend a few more days (weeks?) getting it up to full speed.

For the record, having seen threads on this forum devolve into a discussion on what the word "transcription" means, in my case I'm talking about learning the solo by ear (for me, slowing it down using software if necessary) but not writing it down in notation (which may be a useful thing to do, but it is not something I'm going to do right now). So, it's all trans and no scribe for now.

I've quite enjoyed the process and it has felt good to play some "real" jazz on the instrument. My instinct is to pick a few more solos I like and do the same again. I've made a list of 10 or so.

There's a (large) part of me hoping that spending time on transcription in this sense (learning several entire solos by ear) will be benificial in-and-of itself. Certainly I think this is true in terms of technique: in order to play the Lester Young solo I've had to spend time fixing problems with my plectrum technique and with how I finger lines that I didn't even know existed! However, what I'm really hoping is that the language will seep into my ears and fingers by way of this process.

But for everybody online advocating for learning entire solos by ear there is somebody else advocating for only lifting licks (and then taking them through all keys, constructing variations on them, etc.) as the only way that one will really learn. Similarly, many people wlll argue that learning to play a solo by ear is all well and good but the real payoff comes when you analyse it to understand how it works (and, in this case, writing it out would probably help). (It seems to me that this latter approach also usually amounts, at the end of the day after one's analysis, to isolating favourite licks and going ham on them.)

In light of the fact that both of these are probably true, at some level at least, is there much to be said for learning to play a bunch of solos (not writing them down and with minimal analysis) beyond the fun of doing it (and the happy technique side-effects I mentioned)?

I've never enjoyed learning "licks" and so have never really done so. (I probably should). The benefits of analysing a solo that has been learned is clear to me, but sitting down and making sense of the Prez solo I've just learned is probably a few months work for me, given my time & knowledge constraints.

Incidentally, as a non-professional musician with a job and kids, one of the things I liked about learning the Prez solo was that I could make progress (e.g. learn a new phrase) in only a few minutes a day & a few weeks later I had a whole solo down. This sense of achievable progress has been refreshing after years of feeling as if learning to play jazz was a task involving more time and effort than I have to give.

This is one of those situations where it really is all good. I like the idea of making something part of your routine rather than it being some intense rabbit hole, this is the way i work.

The main thing is that you feel you are getting somewhere with it. A lot of people find ear leading intimidating so avoid it.

So here’s a few things I’ve noticed

- it doesn’t have to be a solo. Not every great player has transcribed whole solos. Otoh many have.

- you do have to learn tunes by ear to some extent and that may be just as valuable. The important thing is to get used to doing stuff by ear.

- most guitarists try to play the thing before they properly internalise what it is they are trying to play. Singing solos through (even with questionable pitch) is a great way of avoiding this. Leave the guitar in its case for the first stage.

- solos used to be short in Prez’s era - one or two choruses. So learning a solo was less of an epic undertaking. Also they were easier to sing!

- College courses invented this thing called transcription. This is the codification of something everybody did in the swing and bop era - learning music by ear. Because everyone did this all the time they didn’t really have a name for it.

- Writing down, singing and playing the solo all teach you different things.

- I like to get my moneys worth. I take the solo apart and make use of the bits. This can be an ongoing process that takes months. This is more important to me than being able to play the solo through.

- Aural memory seems more robust than kinaesthetic.

- playing what you hear is an achievable and practical skill that can be reliably developed and maintained through practice, not a form of witchcraft.

- playing the guitar by ear is much easier when you are very clear on what you are hearing

Don’t know if that helps!


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[Mick-7]

My issue is remembering the solos afterwards. It's okay during the days / weeks / months of the actual transcription, but a few transcriptions later the earlier transcriptions start to fade...

That's why it's a good idea to write them down, just the notes is o.k. Don't worry about notating the rhythms correctly, it can be too time consuming and you'll recall them when you listen to the recording again.

My other issue is that single line stuff is generally ok, especially with Transcribe, but when players start using octaves and chords... especially chords, I struggle.

Octaves shouldn't be a problem, since it's the same note doubled. If it's too much of a challenge for you, write down the melody notes, and bass note of the chords (the two outer voices). Through ear training, you can eventually learn to recognize the chords.

[Christian Miller]

FWIW - I’ve done numerous transcriptions in the manner you’ve described.

As well as learning five Parker heads.

Additionally I’ve memorized ten ii/V/I lines (5 major and 5 minor).

None of that stuff ever showed up when I attempted to improvise even though I warmed up with it daily.

I remember, after many years of practice, staring at the first two bars of All of Me (CMaj7) and I couldn’t think of a single thing to play.

That’s when I finally understood that I’d never be able to improvise Jazz and threw in the towel on even trying.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love listening to Jazz even if I recognize that I’ll never be able to play it. And that’s why I still creep on this forum (and others). Hoping someone may crack the code for me eventually.

So, speaking as someone who flunked out, I’d say the most important thing you can do is whatever produces the desired results. My guess is that’s way more analysis and composition than you may be interested in.

But seriously, what do I know?

Good! Well done on giving up on improvisation. Aim instead to sound like you know what you are doing (even if you don’t). Now you can learn jazz by stealing chunks of it.

Did you transpose the line into all keys and play over the chord progression of common standards such as All of Me every day? Here’s a video

Takes a long time to get anything into improvisation.
Improvisation more or less consists of stuff we know so well we don’t have to give it a thought
- at least when it sounds good.

There are ways to shape it and practice it, but otw I think real practice tends to involve conscious thought a lot more. Shoehorning licks over All of Me is not something I would wish to subject the audience to, but it is good preparation for making music - much like scales.

It takes a long time to get things to that level, and we may get bored of it!

Part of the secret is to not worry about improvisation- work instead on a repertoire of things to play - tunes, ‘canned licks’ and so on - and applying what you know. Do this for a few years and you’ll be ready for the next stage. You will be sounding good; probably not improvising truly freely -but we can’t put the cart before the horse.

This is the classic way to learn jazz from at least the bop era. Most of the players of the 1950s did this with bleeding chunks of Bird and you can hear it haha.

If you choose the licks you like the sound of rather than from a book or course you will start to form your own style even though it’s based on borrowed material.

There are other approaches but this is a popular one. It is taught at jazz schools for example. So it works.

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[Bop Head]

^ @ Christian: LOL I thought we had agreed that ears and audiation are totally overrated in music?

[Christian Miller]

^ @ Christian: LOL I thought we had agreed that ears and audiation are totally overrated in music?

Sorry, yes. Spend ten years reading harmony manuals and play from the tabz in Mel Bay books.

What was I thinking?


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[Mick-7]

Good! Well done on giving up on improvisation. Now you can learn jazz.

For sure, he doesn't need to learn how to improvise to play jazz, where did he get that silly idea?!

But seriously, consider it to be an ear training program and keep at it, eventually you'll notice you're making progress and magic will start to happen (but without witchcraft, except maybe for the tune by that name.)

playing what you hear is an achievable and practical skill that can be reliably developed and maintained through practice, not a form of witchcraft

[bobheff]

My other issue is that single line stuff is generally ok, especially with Transcribe, but when players start using octaves and chords... especially chords, I struggle.

I think I could manage octaves, but I have no intention on trying to figure out chords by ear any time soon!

[bobheff]

I'm liking the consensus here so far: it seems that learning solos won't be a complete waste of time.

I do intend to do at least a little bit of basic analysis, e.g. figuring out which bits are over 251s. I should then probably spend a bit of time isolating licks I like, before the whole lot falls out of my head.

I've got plenty of things to work on apart from this, but I have enjoyed the process of learning to play that Prez solo & I quite like the idea of some learning by osmosis if I keep it up.

[pamosmusic]

That's why it's a good idea to write them down, just the notes is o.k. Don't worry about notating the rhythms correctly, it can be too time consuming and you'll recall them when you listen to the recording again.

By my estimation processing rhythm is probably the best reason to write it down.

[Christian Miller]

I'm liking the consensus here so far: it seems that learning solos won't be a complete waste of time.

I do intend to do at least a little bit of basic analysis, e.g. figuring out which bits are over 251s. I should then probably spend a bit of time isolating licks I like, before the whole lot falls out of my head.

I've got plenty of things to work on apart from this, but I have enjoyed the process of learning to play that Prez solo & I quite like the idea of some learning by osmosis if I keep it up.

Rather than analyse - or maybe in addition to analysis - take musical elements and apply. The thing that makes jazz language is rhythm. So taking the phrases will help with that.

Btw a harmonic analysis might not be the best approach with Prez actually, often he’s playing the blues or melodies in the key. For example if you look at the Lady Be Good Solo he’s playing generalised G major over the first G-C7-G. What makes it sound good is the rhythm

Did I mention the rhythm?


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[Christian Miller]

By my estimation processing rhythm is probably the best reason to write it down.

Yes I find it helps


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[bobheff]

Did I mention the rhythm?

The person who recommended the solo to me also emphasised the rhythm. I'm aware that Prez is working in more of a swing idiom & so is following the changes less than one would find in bop.

I suspect that internalising good swinging rhythms might be the main benefit of learning solos (before perhaps stealing licks, etc.)

[AllanAllen]

Hey OP

When I take solos I try to remember parts that are hard for me, like a specific chord change, and then I’ll look at what Prez, Chet Baker, Gene Ammons, or Miles Davis did there. If they have a version.

Then I’ll take that lick and just use it like they did, eventually I’ll try it other places and it’s in my vocabulary.

[pamosmusic]

I suspect that internalising good swinging rhythms might be the main benefit of learning solos (before perhaps stealing licks, etc.)

By George I think he’s got it.

[charlieparker]

I've been thinking about transcribing the bass line and the chordal accompaniment of some solos I'm interested in. This is something I've neglected when I've previously transcribed things. While it may not help you develop lines, I think it will open your ears to hearing the accompaniment more clearly.

[Mick-7]

By my estimation processing rhythm is probably the best reason to write it down.

Yes, it's necessary to process them, it's just that notating them accurately can be time consuming, but you can put the bar lines in.

I've been thinking about transcribing the bass line and the chordal accompaniment of some solos I'm interested in.

The bass line and melody will clue you to the chords/chord progression, but now-a-days we have lots of fake books to assist us.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, it's necessary to process them, it's just that notating them accurately can be time consuming, but you can put the bar lines in.

Worth the time, me thinks.

[rpjazzguitar]

Most of the great players I know have copied solos. Some write them down. Some do it regularly.

Most have, but not all. I know some terrific players who will admit that they don't transcribe much, if at all, and they don't practice with a metronome (one recommends it to others, but doesn't do it himself).

But, to make it clear, most great players I know have transcribed a lot and are good at it.

I've never enjoyed transcription, mostly because I'm not good at it. The usual advice is, do more of it, and you'll get better. That might require self-discipline <g>.

When I try I often get stuck on trying to figure out an unusual sounding chord in a recording that kind of murky and it can be frustrating. Melody is much easier. Hear a few notes, sing them and then find them on the guitar.

I think the conventional wisdom is that there's no advantage to not-transcribing. It seems to me that not-transcribing just might force a player to find his own vocabulary, which could contribute to the development of an individual style. The conventional wisdom differs - most suggest that transcribing eventually leads to an individual style, presumably with more breadth melodically and harmonically.

I also wonder if copying solos with one's voice and not the guitar would work. For that matter, why not imitate Frank Sinatra's or Nat Cole's or Tony Bennett's phrasing by singing along?

My copying is limited to fragments that catch my ear. I've read through transcriptions done by others more than I've transcribed myself -- by a wide margin. But, neither transcribing myself nor reading transcriptions is likely to get something new into my playing. Rather, for some reason, it has been more effective when I'm sitting next to a player who does something ear-catching and I can see how he did it. For some reason, that stuff is much more likely to stick. Just about every lick I use (both of them) came to me that way.