Do You Think of the Words When Playing The Melody?

[raylinds]

I find it much easier to memorize and internalize a melody while singing the words in my head while playing (obviously for songs that have lyrics.). I am curious whether other players do the same.

[ragman1]

No, because I think it would dictate the phrasing too strictly. That's the basic reason. The other is that I don't know the lyrics :-)

[Bop Head]

No, because I think it would dictate the phrasing too strictly. That's the basic reason. [...]

TBH that is what often irritates me in your playing in case I know the song. Miles told his guys to listen to Sinatra to learn phrasing. Lester (or was it Dexter?) would stop playing when he forgot the lyrics.

I found this video inspiring regarding making the lyrics your own.

[mr. beaumont]

I am a big fan of knowing the words. Then you can phrase like a singer, instead of just noodling.

[ragman1]

I am a big fan of knowing the words. Then you can phrase like a singer, instead of just noodling.

But why should not following the phrasing of the lyrics mean noodling? There are a million really good solos that have nothing to do with the structure of the lyrics. The first bars may suggest the idea but not after that, it would sound deliberate and not very good.

[ragman1]

I think knowing the words makes the tune easier to remember, they seem to go together. But that wasn't the question. That was 'Do you think of the words when playing the melody?'. To which the answer, personally, is no. If I had to say the words to myself it would mean I didn't know the tune well enough.

Actually, it's the physical fingering that prompts the tune when playing. Muscle memory plus listening to what's coming out musically. Definitely not words, not at the moment of playing.

[raylinds]

One of my favorite movies of all time is 'Round Midnight. I love the scene when Dale Turner (played by Dexter Gordon) is sitting outside the club looking upset and Francois asks him what is wrong and Dale says he had to stop playing a song because he couldn't remember the words so Francois sings them to him.

[Doublea A]

I find it much easier to memorize and internalize a melody while singing the words in my head while playing (obviously for songs that have lyrics.). I am curious whether other players do the same.

Yes I do


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[mr. beaumont]

But why should not following the phrasing of the lyrics mean noodling? There are a million really good solos that have nothing to do with the structure of the lyrics. The first bars may suggest the idea but not after that, it would sound deliberate and not very good.

Aren't we talking about playing the melody?

[DawgBone]

If you don't know the words, you don't know the song and I"m ready to be nasty and disagreeable about it.

[dasein]

Yes, you should learn the lyrics. Although some tunes I almost wish I hadn't because the lyrics end up being so insipid. Polka Dots and Moonbeams, Moonlight on Vermont, ugh.

If you're still not sure, consider this:

Every great jazz musician that whose opinion I've heard, either from interviews or from personal interaction, have unanimously said that learning the lyrics help.

Furthermore, ragman says you shouldn't bother, and when in doubt, always do the exact opposite of anything ragman says.

[pauln]

No, it does not matter to me if there are words or not, or who wrote the words, or who wrote the tune, or whether the melody or the words came first, or if the words are in English, Spanish, Portuguese, or French.

[Doublea A]

I am a big fan of knowing the words. Then you can phrase like a singer, instead of just noodling.

I feel that if you know the lyrics that you are better able to bring out the sentiment of the tune when playing the melody or soloing.


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[mr. beaumont]

I mean, you're not always going to know the words...but heading like a singer is good practice and can become a habit.

[Bop Head]

No, it does not matter to me if there are words or not, or who wrote the words, or who wrote the tune, or whether the melody or the words came first, or if the words are in English, Spanish, Portuguese, or French.

If it is Autumn Leaves it matters to me If I go after the French or the English lyrics.

[raylinds]

I feel that if you know the lyrics that you are better able to bring out the sentiment of the tune when playing the melody or soloing.


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Good point- I agree.

[ragman1]

TBH that is what often irritates me in your playing in case I know the song.

Well, no... mostly I play from lead sheets which, by and large, say the same thing. So if I'm wrong, they're wrong.

But I'm not singing the song, I'm an instrumentalist/improviser which means I tend to embellish the melody slightly with fills and so on.

In any case, are you saying all the vocalists sing exactly the same thing? They do not, of course, far from it. Take, say, Autumn In New York. Listen to Ella Fitzgerald sing it and then Billie Holiday do it. Not the same at all. Billie changes the tune in the first few lines.

Or take some instrumentalists. Try Dexter Gordon and Sonny Stitt doing it. Dexter changes it virtually immediately and if my brief meanderings irritate you then Sonny Stitt will drive you completely bonkers!

We're allowed to express the melody as we feel it. If it deviates from the tune so much that it almost becomes another tune you would have a point. But, of course, it doesn't, it's just expressionism.

[ragman1]

Aren't we talking about playing the melody?

Ok, I see, but I suspect the idea here is that we can't really play the melody properly unless we know the words. Knowing the tune well isn't enough. Is that something like it?

I can't agree, sorry. As I said before, it might help a bit initially, but I really don't know the lyrics to practically any of the standards I play. I know the tune. I've researched it till I've got it down and then I play with it. And if playing it properly means 'exactly' I seldom do, and neither do hardly any of the players I've heard doing it! Quite the opposite, in fact (see post above).

As for having to run the words in one's head while doing the melody... I didn't want to say it before but I think that's beginner stuff, although it might be an aide to learning it in the first place. But surely you shouldn't be its prisoner.

[henryrobinett]

Never.


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[ragman1]

ragman says you shouldn't bother.

I've never said that (see other posts).

I used to be a singer, long before I started playing instrumentals. I probably play almost everything, including the solos, as though I were singing it! That's one reason I'm no good at bebop. It's got to have some emotion to it. Scooby dooby bebop doesn't really do it for me :-)

(Please don't say bebop has no emotion, you know what I mean).

[Bop Head]

I've never said that (see other posts).

I used to be a singer, long before I started playing instrumentals. I probably play almost everything, including the solos, as though I were singing it! That's one reason I'm no good at bebop. It's got to have some emotion to it. Scooby dooby bebop doesn't really do it for me :-)

(Please don't say bebop has no emotion, you know what I mean).

According to bebop grande dame Sheila Jordan "scooby dooby" is bad scatting.

EDIT: I think it is in the Interview with Monk Rowe (Filius Jazz Archive at Hamilton College).

[pamosmusic]

Well, no... mostly I play from lead sheets which, by and large, say the same thing. So if I'm wrong, they're wrong.

Oh you sweet summer child

[pamosmusic]

That's one reason I'm no good at bebop. It's got to have some emotion to it. Scooby dooby bebop doesn't really do it for me :-)

(Please don't say bebop has no emotion, you know what I mean).

Erm … actually I don’t.

[raylinds]

Well, no... mostly I play from lead sheets which, by and large, say the same thing. So if I'm wrong, they're wrong.

But I'm not singing the song, I'm an instrumentalist/improviser which means I tend to embellish the melody slightly with fills and so on.

In any case, are you saying all the vocalists sing exactly the same thing? They do not, of course, far from it. Take, say, Autumn In New York. Listen to Ella Fitzgerald sing it and then Billie Holiday do it. Not the same at all. Billie changes the tune in the first few lines.

Or take some instrumentalists. Try Dexter Gordon and Sonny Stitt doing it. Dexter changes it virtually immediately and if my brief meanderings irritate you then Sonny Stitt will drive you completely bonkers!

We're allowed to express the melody as we feel it. If it deviates from the tune so much that it almost becomes another tune you would have a point. But, of course, it doesn't, it's just expressionism.

Since I was asking if other people sing the lyrics in their head, there is no right or wrong answer- you either do or you don't. Since I am a neophyte, and a sentimental traditionalist, I like to run through the melody as written at least once before starting to improvise. YMMV. It is also possible to make some changes to the melody and still retain the words- as you mention, Ella and Billie did that (though they sometimes changed the words, too). Ella was the queen of vocal improv and did very little as written. It is one of the reasons she is my favorite jazz vocalist.

I am also a big fan of Sonny Stitt. He got a reputation for being a Charlie Parker clone but, even though he kind of started out that way, I think he eventually developed his own voice IMHO.

I think another reason I sing the lyrics mentally is for the emotional connection, but that doesn't mean those who don't lack emotion in their playing. One of the things I have learned with age and experience is that there are many paths that lead to the same destination, and we must each find our own.

[ragman1]

"scooby dooby" is bad scatting.

Quite right :-)