Octave Displacement using Arps

[GuyBoden]

Here's a few examples of Octave Displacement using Arps, which I liked.

All this involves is moving a note in an Arp down an octave and continuing the Arp in that octave.

[pamosmusic]

Here's a few examples of Octave Displacement using Arps, which I liked.

All this involves is moving a note in an Arp down an octave and continuing the Arp in that octave.

Those in the bebop biz call this the "pivot."

[GuyBoden]

Those in the bebop biz call this the "pivot."

I was told that they were called 'Octave Displacements' many years ago.

But, in more recent years, I've heard them also called Pivots.

[dconeill]

Is "arpeggio" really that hard to write? Apparently.

[RJVB]

Is "arpeggio" really that hard to write? Apparently.

No, it makes the concept too easy to read and understand, and I for one wouldn't have opened the thread to see what on earth this was about again

[pamosmusic]

No, it makes the concept too easy to read and understand, and I for one wouldn't have opened the thread to see what on earth this was about again

How about we just decide that when you goobers make an interesting document and see fit to post it for others free of charge, you can call them arps or arpeggios or whatever you please.

Until then I suppose thanks to Guy for posting.

[pamosmusic]

I was told that they were called 'Octave Displacements' many years ago.

But, in more recent years, I've heard them also called Pivots.

Nah six of one, half dozen of the other. I think pivot is just the old bebop dork term for the same thing. With arpeggios it *usually* refers to displacing after the first note, but no idea if that’s part of the definition or just the most common iteration. Paging Christian. Octave displacement maybe is a better general term? Not sure.

Anyway … super fun stuff to work on. Post some more of them when you can.

[Mick-7]

Nah six of one, half dozen of the other. I think pivot is just the old bebop dork term for the same thing. With arpeggios it *usually* refers to displacing after the first note, but no idea if that’s part of the definition or just the most common iteration. Paging Christian. Octave displacement maybe is a better general term?

You don't want to know what Nicholas Slonimsky calls this technique - nor do I for that matter.

[pamosmusic]

You don't want to know what Nicholas Slonimsky calls this technique - nor do I for that matter.

oooooo …. Now I do.

color me intrigued.

Should we guess the number of syllables?

[GuyBoden]

Here is another Octave Displacement using Arps.

This example uses three separate Octave Displacements.

[Mick-7]

I don't think that octave displacement is the proper term for this because you're not "displacing" notes. Your latest example is an ascending arpeggio pattern repeated over different chords, the pattern being chord tones 3-1-3-5-7-(5) - with the 5th repeated to serve as a pickup note to the next chord arpeggio.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah so octave displacement would be like if you had a pattern of any kind …

say … C E G B …

The order of pitch letter names never changes, but at some point you can take one of the notes up or down the octave and continue from there

[RJVB]

Or you play get together with a few people playing instruments that are 1 or more octaves apart and play the same line "unison" except not all at the same time. Cool, spatial displacement!

[pamosmusic]

Or you play get together with a few people playing instruments that are 1 or more octaves apart and play the same line "unison" except not all at the same time. Cool, spatial displacement!

I believe they call that a “round.”

[RJVB]

Even when you're not in a mise en espace in a circle?

BTW, done right (on a single instrument) the principle can also be called a "fugue"

[pamosmusic]

Even when you're not in a mise en espace in a circle?

BTW, done right (on a single instrument) the principle can also be called a "fugue"

Fugue is different. Transpositions etc.

[RJVB]

I didn't say it would not be a bare-bones fugue, but maybe I should have said "canon".

Still, many fugues begin like canons, where a newly entering voice repeats the theme in a different register. Do they only officially become fugues when something a bit more complex starts to happen?

(IIRC the original by Reincken is for 2 melody instruments + BC)

[pamosmusic]

I didn't say it would not be a bare-bones fugue, but maybe I should have said "canon".

Still, many fugues begin like canons, where a newly entering voice repeats the theme in a different register. Do they only officially become fugues when something a bit more complex starts to happen?

Correct. Fugues have quite complex rules and conventions. Otherwise they’d just call it canon.

Fugue - Wikipedia

[Christian Miller]

Nah six of one, half dozen of the other. I think pivot is just the old bebop dork term for the same thing. With arpeggios it *usually* refers to displacing after the first note, but no idea if that’s part of the definition or just the most common iteration. Paging Christian. Octave displacement maybe is a better general term? Not sure.

Anyway … super fun stuff to work on. Post some more of them when you can.

I think octave displacement is more a more general term that a classical musician would understand for instance. Pivot is what Barry harris called them.


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[Christian Miller]

I didn't say it would not be a bare-bones fugue, but maybe I should have said "canon".

Still, many fugues begin like canons, where a newly entering voice repeats the theme in a different register. Do they only officially become fugues when something a bit more complex starts to happen?

(IIRC the original by Reincken is for 2 melody instruments + BC)

You know I’m not sure the edge of fugue is super well defined. Obviously not a strict canon. But canonical entries are not a unique property of a fugue either - look at Renaissance liturgical music for instance. Even lute music it’s common to find little canons and you have things like Stretto Fuga which are little recipes that spit out good canons in improvised and composed music. They are a part of the technique of good composition in the Western tradition.

As I understand it a fugue has to have canonical entries in different keys and episodic material connecting them. In general - thematic statements of an imitative nature and sequenced material. All the extra stuff like stretto, pedal points and clever stuff with retrogrades and what have you are finessing the basic structure. To my limited knowledge they seem to a natural development of modulating verset structure, which would make sense. I always feel they have a lot in common with preludes, weirdly.

You also have things like Fughettas that are not totally proper fugues. The two part inventions have aspects like a fugue, but are not quite fully fledged fugues. I think in this case you tend to see the canonical entires at the octave rather than the fifth which is more common in ‘proper fugues’ but something tells me this isn’t a hard and fast rule either .

On the other hand we all think of Bach as the fugue guy but his fugues were unusually rigorous for the era. I expect the romantics picked up a lot on what he did when defining their ideas of fugue.

It’s a bit of theme. It’s really quite hard to pin down the exact nature of things like Sonatas and Ricercars. Even the Passacaglia might be a ground bass or Rondo style form depending on the country and time period.

[Mick-7]

Here is another Octave Displacement using Arps.

This example uses three separate Octave Displacements.

So.... Nicholas Slonimsky calls your examples "octave division with note interpolation" (interpolation of 1 to 4 notes) . In this example, you have the C major scale divided with 1 nondiatonic note interpolated between the octave divisions - Gb, A#, D# & Bb. Your first example divided the octave with an interpolation of two nondiatonic notes.

What's more, the interpolated notes are catalogued according to how they are interpolated: ultra, intra, infra, and combinations of these types of interpolation.

[Bobby Timmons]

I like it! Super easy and effective!

[Mick-7]

Regardless of what you call this, it's a great way to practice arpeggios over chord changes, i.e., play the diatonic chord tones in various combinations and use chromatic passing tones to connect the arpeggios. And this exercise can be as simple or complex as you want, for instance, you could start with only 1 or 2 chord tones from each chord and play them in various rhythms, then add 1 or 2 more chord tones, etc.

[bako]

C E G B || C E G B || C E G B || C E G B

underlined notes down an octave.
simple move to create variations for arpeggios and melodies.
worth practicing and assimilating in my opinion.

[GuyBoden]

If you only start the arpeggio on the root note, you could miss out on some great sounding Octave Displacement phrases.

Below: This Octave Displacement phrase starts on the note C of a Dm7 arpeggio.