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If you were teaching someone Jazz - what would be 6 tunes that would cover as much as possible?
My choices would likely be:
- Now's The Time (or a similar Blues Head in F or Bb)
- Autumn Leaves (ii-V-I Vocab)
- Oleo or Anthropology (Rhythm Changes - I-VI-ii-V Vocab)
- It Could Happen to You (Ballad - dim Vocab)
- Softly, As In a Morning Sunrise (Blending of Pentatonics use)
- Maybe So What (modal) or Blue Bossa (Bossa) or possibly Take The A-Train...
Would love to hear your suggestions, as well as why those particular tunes would be useful to learn.
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06-30-2024 08:22 AM
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I think any student would be very pleased to get those under their fingers. They even include some minor ii-Vs on which to practice the harmonic minor.
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Oooooo
1. Now’s the Time - it’s sort of a riff blues so it can teach you how simple a line can be and still work well. Those can also teach you how you can position lines over changes. Could also be an assortment of loads of other riff tunes.
2. Au Privave - just vocabulary central
3. Probably Anthropology? - rhythm changes and also vocabulary central.
4. Autumn Leaves is probably a good one - the changes have a lot of major and minor ii-Vs mostly in the same key, and also the melody is super instructive on melodic development.
5. Maybe All the Things? That one’s really good for constructing a melody too, based around guide tones, which is a pretty useful skill. I tend to use Fly Me to the Moon for this one because the changes are easier. But in an ideal world All the things would be cool.
6. I don’t know … I find myself using Solar a lot because the melody uses so many useful devices, enclosure in particular. All of Me also, but because of the way it uses melodic shapes in this really lovely way to outline the changes and make a coherent melody.
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Yea... good choices...... but what one should really do is... while learning tunes.... learn or memorize,
Jazz Forms and Structures
Think Big Picture first then smaller details
All tunes fit into standard Jazz Forms... Forms are how tunes are constructed, the overall structure of the Tune is called the Form.
1) Form
2) Sections (within the Form)
3) length of sections
4) which sections repeat
5) total # of bars in tune etc...
-all part of understanding what your memorizing.
* one needs to learn how to think and be aware of what's ahead. Your primary attention is what your playing and your secondary attention is .... what's coming.
You need to learn to anticipate what's ahead. It is a technique...part of playing Jazz.
You do this by becoming aware of standard harmonic, melodic and rhythmic Signposts within Forms.
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If we're talking truly beginner jazz players, I'd go even simpler on the blues (e.g., Sonnymoon, Things Ain't What They Used to Be), and for rhythm changes I'd do I got rhythm. I would definitely include Blue Bossa and A-Train, but So What would depend on the student. Some players probably need to get their counting and time together before tackling that (it's very easy to lose your place in it).
Originally Posted by jamiehenderson1993
I'd add:
Satin Doll (ii-V's up the ying yang)
Green Dolphin Street (good for switching off between latin and swing, plus lots of teachable moments for harmony)
Girl From Ipanema (somebody's going to call it, so you gotta learn it)
Stella (ditto)
Black Orpheus (great tune for people coming out of a rock/blues background)
Out of Nowhere (good teachable moments, plus a good point of entry for chord melody)
All of them are essential repertoire and have different forms concepts that you have to know.
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That's a great list. My thinking was blues, then rhythm changes. And then I had to think about it. Autumn Leaves seems like a good choice. As does Out of Nowhere. Originally Posted by John A.
Shadow of Your Smile comes to mind as a moderate tempo tune with a number of harmonic devices that you need to know, but it's not on anybody's top 50 tunes list. But, Blue Bossa has some of those same devices and is very commonly called.
Those few tunes have a lot of harmony and some rhythmic variation.
I read that Coltrane focused on 8 tunes. Anybody have the list?
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Don’t teach new players so what. Counting 24 bars of D- never works out.
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Interesting that that the focus of most replies is on the changes rather than the melodies.
My observation is that a lot of jazz players end up playing the similar solos over the common changes rather than playing over the tunes.
And I believe that's why people don't like most of the jazz they encounter.
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Ahem … Originally Posted by rictroll
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by rictroll
Yea I'm assuming your not talking about my post.... because most don't really do the work to understand either approach. Melodies are just like changes or rhythmic figures.... they fit into standard jazz Forms.
I really don't understand why there are like these different approaches.... I mean when one plays a tune, yea you play the melody a couple times, same with the changes, generally the tunes are then played many more times, depending on what a player has to say and how many player etc... the one thing that doesn't change is the Form...
Yea we add interludes and vamps.... but they sill imply or are structures from the Form.
Melodic embellishment...or melody development... when used as the main approach usually is great for putting everyone to sleep or stepping out for a drink... for most it sucks because they don't have the technical skills.
The Blues and Bop or rhythm changes are good approach.... but really because they are teaching you.... even if your unaware..... "Forms" and how they are organized... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically.
The point is.... even as a beginner etc.... and generally anyone trying to play in a Jazz style.... isn't a beginner, anyway... Free form jazz is cool and fun if you have the skills, most don't. Mark, a forum member is one of the few that can cover...
Anyway... Jamie.... do you know the Forms of the Tunes you suggested to help learn Jazz.
Allan.... So what is just another AABA Form... if your getting lost, you haven't developed approaches for shaping and feeling Forms with standard sign posts. Rhythmically, melodically or harmonically.
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I’m not getting lost anymore. But, it was painful for a bunch of gigs while I got it together. Jazz beginners don’t need to go though what I did. They can learn tunes with actual changes and not modal vamp’s for the first year. Originally Posted by Reg
It’s a simple tune, done in a challenging way. Like I said, counting 24 bars of one chord isn’t for beginners. Blues and Rhythm Changes will do them better. At least at the start.
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I'm sure Miles and company had no issues keeping place in that form...but I'm also sure Jimmy Cobb totally signals each section change, just in case somebody was caught lackin.'
Like, he does, just listen to it. It's cool to help your fellow band members out.
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As a relatively new student of jazz guitar, I find this thread interesting and particularly close to home.
I took up jazz in October 2021, so just shy of 3 years ago. I had a very basic facility on the guitar having taught myself to play many, many, many years ago as a young teenager in the 1960s but never progressed beyond basic rock chords. When I decided to pick up the guitar again and focus on jazz I hadn’t played in many years, although I did have a serviceable knowledge of music theory.
The first 6 tunes that my teacher introduced me to (in no particular order) were:
Autumn Leaves
Blue Bossa
Fly Me to the Moon
On Green Dolphin Street
All the Things You Are
There Will Never be Another You
It quickly became apparent that I had unremarkable but adequate and untapped potential; however, because of my 60+ years of rock indoctrination I seem to have no ear for jazz timing and phrasing. To help remedy this my teacher assignment me Oleo and Donna Lee.
I still struggle to overcome my rock roots and get frustrated when I have to settle on a basic chord melody arrangement rather than a Ted Greene chart but what the hell, who’s in a hurry
.
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Counting the measures in So What? I guess that if you're inside the tune you just feel when the change up or down is coming. Anyway, if you miss it accidentally, just turn it into a side-slipping move. That's how all that sh*t started anyway!
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Man sideslipping is the easiest way to get everyone to think they missed the bridge and go there early Originally Posted by Peter C
Counting the measures in So What? I guess that if you're inside the tune you just feel when the change up or down is coming. Anyway, if you miss it accidentally, just turn it into a side-slipping move. That's how all that sh*t started anyway!
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In a big band chart, say a 12 bar blues, the guitar is out for a chorus and then comes back in on bar 9 of the second chorus.
That should be notated as a 12 bar rest followed by an 8 bar rest.
That's because you should be able to feel the 12 bar form and you should be able to feel when you hit bar 9.
The notation is easiest to follow when it allows you to feel things appropriately. You're not counting to 20. You're counting to 12 and then to 8 or 9.
And, it's the same thing for counting 24 bars composed of three A sections of 8 bars each. You're feeling 8's, not 24's.
The only challenge is after 16 bars of A section -- if you space out you can get confused as to whether you just played AA or AAA. A good drummer will cue it every time.
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Indeed - point taken Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Reg
I don't feel negative about any of the posts, but as essential as learning the changes is, I think it's also important to distinguish the tune and avoid playing all Bb Blues tunes the same way. But we all have to build our repertoire and solutions. It's a journey.
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I think the OP's list is good.
Blues, rhythm changes, ATTYA, those are the standard of standards. For the other three, I'd ask a student for songs they like or think they could handle. "All of Me? Sure, great tune." "Autumn Leaves? Yeah, that's a great one, let's give it a go." "Summertime? Why not? Love that tune." And if they want to learn a Charlie Christian or Wes tune, that's just fine too.
But you have to know blues and rhythm.
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Exactly why you should teach a tune with clear sections to a beginner and not So What with so many static bars of D-. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I keep saying it’s 24 bars because that’s how beginners count it, from Eb to Eb, since that’s the important part to them. The part to not mess up.
Better to teach them 5 other AABA tunes so they get the form then be like here’s a crazy AABA.
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This thread may be of interest:
Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners
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The only problem with this thought process is that the canonical first jazz record that drives rock/blues players to start learning it is Kind of Blue. By the time they get to a teacher they're already lost in the form. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Yea... Allan your point is more about what or how you've been learning jazz tunes and playing in a jazz style.
Even simple 12 bar blues has an A B C form if you want to start learning how and why music, at least in the style of this Forum, is performed and learned.
Those three 4 bar sections... and part of playing in a jazz style... is making those 4 bar sections be felt, at least implied.
Even if you just vamp on the I7 chord for the entire 12 bars..... there should be no question as to where the beginning of the tune is. (learn basic 8, 12 and 16 bar blues forms)
When you’re thinking or hearing 24 bars of the same chord in "So What"....you’re not learning the tune.
If you’re counting bars... you’re already lost and haven't been taught or learned how to approach playing in a jazz style.
Learning how to Vamp is part of playing in a jazz style. Vamping is not just thinking or playing a few chords...
Anyway It seems that maybe the topic is more about melodic and harmonic details of playing jazz tunes. Not playing in a jazz style.
Most need to start teaching, learning, or training themselves to shape the basic building components or elements of
all Jazz tunes...
I perform with many different musicians.... some fill in the space and are basically time followers. It's always more fun and the music can reach much higher levels of performance when musicians understand the basic elements and components of ... Form... of what they are playing. Language does really help if you don't understand or know where to use it.
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I think Allan knows this stuff. I think he’s just suggesting that giving people a tune to learn where the sections of the form are more easily distinguishable might be a better way to get them to hear form in the first place.
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I think referring to "So What" as 24 bars of D- is a mistake. It's an AABA form. I'm no master, but when I play this tune I try to structure the solo so that I enunciate a decent musical idea in the first 8 D- bars, then kick in a serious variation or change-up that still feels in line with the idea for the second 8 bars. When the "bridge" comes and it goes up a half-step, that's when some other new idea is needed, and when the final A section brings you back to D- you want to reassert your initial idea strongly and slam it home.
It's not a tune for noodlers! Just playing dorian scales will be boring, and I found I have to think of it like a straight-up 32 bar AABA tune.
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