Do you play the alternating bassline on a bossa with bass player?

[Hugo Gainly]

I mean, you could also say, because that’s how Bossa guitar is played.

I take it that's 'official'? I think of the Surdo as belonging in Samba but not particularly in Bossa Nova (yes, yes...). So, it's like a big band doing a tonic pedal because that's what the harmonium does. (Well, no, Ok...). I hope this isn't jazz's smearing of 'Latin'.

The intro of Aguas de Marco has bass on 3 but not in the corpus. Favela's melody is never on 3, Desafinado ixne, Aguas de Beber, un-unh etc. Dindi does though momentarily. The idea of the clave only extending to certain, but not all, instruments/components of a tune is new to my thinking.

But, listening back to my own compositions with various bands I note that I do specifically play thumb bass on 1 and 3 in a Partido Alto style piece. But that's not Bossa Nova.

Actually, although I have vaguely studied this, I don't think bass solidly on 1 and 3 ever found its way into my brain in BN. I think I only played the clave (or one of similar claves) with the bass syncopated as well. I can see that the bounce on 3 might be interesting, if it is isolated from the rhythm.

On reflection, I think my reaction is partly based on having played tres in an afro-cuban Charanga band for a few years where nobody played 3 - particularly and specifically, the bass player because this would (and did) throw the dancers out. Of course, nobody knew where 1 was either. I think that was where I first heard of the Clave Police.

Perhaps this is the musical equivalent of being an amateur astronomer and noticing a big yellow thing just out of sight ("behind you!").

[ragman1]

Sounds like nobody knows to me. Or, if they do, it's very vague. Anyone got a video of a bossa guitar player and a bass player on the same stage?

My own feeling, somewhere, is that a guitar playing nice bossa style chords, etc, wouldn't really need a bass player going thump in the background.

[kris]

The key is to play bossa nova in the right style.
If you play solo accompaniment in bossa-nova on the guitar, you "imitate" the bass part with your thumb.
If you play with a bassist, you focus on the rhythm and do not double the bass part with your thumb.
It is very easy.

[Bop Head]

I take it that's 'official'? I think of the Surdo as belonging in Samba but not particularly in Bossa Nova (yes, yes...). So, it's like a big band doing a tonic pedal because that's what the harmonium does. (Well, no, Ok...). I hope this isn't jazz's smearing of 'Latin'.

The intro of Aguas de Marco has bass on 3 but not in the corpus. Favela's melody is never on 3, Desafinado ixne, Aguas de Beber, un-unh etc. Dindi does though momentarily. The idea of the clave only extending to certain, but not all, instruments/components of a tune is new to my thinking.

But, listening back to my own compositions with various bands I note that I do specifically play thumb bass on 1 and 3 in a Partido Alto style piece. But that's not Bossa Nova.

Actually, although I have vaguely studied this, I don't think bass solidly on 1 and 3 ever found its way into my brain in BN. I think I only played the clave (or one of similar claves) with the bass syncopated as well. I can see that the bounce on 3 might be interesting, if it is isolated from the rhythm.

On reflection, I think my reaction is partly based on having played tres in an afro-cuban Charanga band for a few years where nobody played 3 - particularly and specifically, the bass player because this would (and did) throw the dancers out. Of course, nobody knew where 1 was either. I think that was where I first heard of the Clave Police.

Perhaps this is the musical equivalent of being an amateur astronomer and noticing a big yellow thing just out of sight ("behind you!").

I posted a link to a Nelson Faria masterclass in post #7.

[Bop Head]

I think if the guitarist and the bassist really listen to each other (which I actually shouldn't even have to mention) it shouldn't be a problem to groove together.

There are lots of musical styles where the guitar is doubling the bassline, e.g. in reggae you have most of the time one guitar playing the off-beats together with the keyboards while a second palm-muted guitar is doubling the bassline.

In sixties pop there is often a guitar doubling the bass as well.

If you are not able to play together perfectly it might be time to practice together until you are able to do it.

[kris]

I think if the guitarist and the bassist really listen to each other (which I actually shouldn't even have to mention) it shouldn't be a problem to groove together.

There are lots of musical styles where the guitar is doubling the bassline, e.g. in reggae you have most of the time one guitar playing the off-beats together with the keyboards while a second palm-muted guitar is doubling the bassline.

In sixties pop there is often a guitar doubling the bass as well.

If you are not able to play together perfectly it might be time to practice together until you are able to do it.

.... but I guess it's about playing a bossa-nova...latn style.

[AllanAllen]

The key is to play bossa nova in the right style.
If you play solo accompaniment in bossa-nova on the guitar, you "imitate" the bass part with your thumb.
If you play with a bassist, you focus on the rhythm and do not double the bass part with your thumb.
It is very easy.

Exactly.

[Bop Head]

.... but I guess it's about playing a bossa-nova...latn style.

Bossa is not Latin. Bossa is Brazil.

[kris]

Bossa is not Latin. Bossa is Brazil.

Latin jazz - Wikipedia

[Bop Head]

Latin jazz - Wikipedia

Tell that to a brasileiro / brasileira ...

[Christian Miller]

I take it that's 'official'? I think of the Surdo as belonging in Samba but not particularly in Bossa Nova (yes, yes...). So, it's like a big band doing a tonic pedal because that's what the harmonium does. (Well, no, Ok...). I hope this isn't jazz's smearing of 'Latin'.

The intro of Aguas de Marco has bass on 3 but not in the corpus. Favela's melody is never on 3, Desafinado ixne, Aguas de Beber, un-unh etc. Dindi does though momentarily. The idea of the clave only extending to certain, but not all, instruments/components of a tune is new to my thinking.

But, listening back to my own compositions with various bands I note that I do specifically play thumb bass on 1 and 3 in a Partido Alto style piece. But that's not Bossa Nova.

Actually, although I have vaguely studied this, I don't think bass solidly on 1 and 3 ever found its way into my brain in BN. I think I only played the clave (or one of similar claves) with the bass syncopated as well. I can see that the bounce on 3 might be interesting, if it is isolated from the rhythm.

On reflection, I think my reaction is partly based on having played tres in an afro-cuban Charanga band for a few years where nobody played 3 - particularly and specifically, the bass player because this would (and did) throw the dancers out. Of course, nobody knew where 1 was either. I think that was where I first heard of the Clave Police.

Perhaps this is the musical equivalent of being an amateur astronomer and noticing a big yellow thing just out of sight ("behind you!").

Yeah I have no idea about Tres Cubano. But Clave is a fully fledged theoretical concept in Cuban music which is it not in Brazilian music. (This could be a lengthier discussion regarding whether or not you can apply the concept of a clave to Brazilian music, but I’ll leave it there for now.)

And given the nature of the Cuban bass which is frequently expressing neither the one nor three it’s obviously a different thing.

The simplest response to this (other than to say ‘this is what I was told to do by people who are really good at Brazilian music) is to simply to say ‘do what Joao Gilberto did’ and leave it at that. Which is to say the thumb is often repeating the same note on 1 and 3 and not even alternating.

Of course the thumb isn’t limited to the 1 and 3 (actually 1 and 2 because samba and Bossa should be notated in 2/4 not 4/4) anymore than the surdos only play that pattern - but it is the default for bossa guitar.

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[Bop Head]

The key is to play bossa nova in the right style.
If you play solo accompaniment in bossa-nova on the guitar, you "imitate" the bass part with your thumb.
If you play with a bassist, you focus on the rhythm and do not double the bass part with your thumb.
It is very easy.

Kris, please read the whole thread and listen to the Nelson Faria masterclass. Bossa originated in the appartments of Rio. So it was literally a sort of "chamber music". There was no bass player originally (to imitate), only guitarists who played basslines derived from the deepest samba drum, the surdo.

And a quote from rpjazzguitar who is much more than me into Brazil music actively, post #6 of this thread:

If the bassist is doing the same thing, it can work to double the bass line. Antonio Aldofo talks about it in his book.

If the bass is unpredictable it might still work, because the alternating bass on quarter notes (in 2/4) is still part of the layered groove -- it's there in the bossa rhythm whether somebody is playing it explicitly, or not (edit: actually, it will be heard at least in the accents of the 16th note pulse (in 2/4) from a shaker, hi hat, pandeiro or tamborim). But, you risk conflict.

If you don't play alternating bass, you still have to figure out what to play. If you listen to Bossa Nova, you find that there is a lot of variation among great players. Open Studio's Brazilian package has some nice demos, including a different way to comp it. I think one of the videos may be available for free as a sample.

Historically, from what I've read, the guitar style was developed in Rio apartments around 1960, without bass.

[kris]

Tell that to a brasileiro / brasileira ...

I played with native Brazilians and had no problems with it.
Very nice people.

[Bop Head]

I played with native Brazilians and had no problems with it.
Very nice people.

Muito legal.

[kris]

Kris, please read the whole thread and listen to the Nelson Faria masterclass. Bossa originated in the appartments of Rio. So it was literally a sort of "chamber music". There was no bass player originally (to imitate), only a guitar.

But we're not talking about history, we're talking about how to play bossa-nova in a contemporary jazz group-with bass and guitar of course.

[kris]

Kris, please read the whole thread and listen to the Nelson Faria masterclass. Bossa originated in the appartments of Rio. So it was literally a sort of "chamber music". There was no bass player originally (to imitate), only guitarists who played basslines derived from the deepest samba drum, the surdo.

And a quote from rpjazzguitar who is much more than me into Brazil music actively, post #6 of this thread:

What this thread is about is described in the first post.
So I described it as I understand it.

[Christian Miller]

To get back to the subject of the thread regarding rhythm sections (I don’t think Hugo’s comments were regarding ensemble playing from the comment he quoted) and to tie into what Bophead is saying it might be worth pointing out that basslines are much less improvised in Bossa than in modern jazz. So rather as in pre war jazz, doubling the bass is far less of an issue generally.

My own approach is really - not to worry. I think I habitually play a little less bass anyway, but ‘ghost’ it a little. I think so long as you are listening to the band and not just yourself, you will physically make adjustments intuitively.

I often find it hard to hear exactly what the guitarists are doing in this situation tbh, although I’m hearing only trebles on the guitar in this recording for example

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[Bop Head]

Yeah I have no idea about Tres Cubano. But Clave is a fully fledged theoretical concept in Cuban music which is it not in Brazilian music. (This could be a lengthier discussion regarding whether or not you can apply the concept of a clave to Brazilian music, but I’ll leave it there for now.)

The simplest response to this (other than to say ‘this is what I was told to do by people who are really good at Brazilian music) is to simply to say ‘do what Joao Gilberto did’ and leave it at that.

Of course the thumb isn’t limited to the 1 and 3 (actually 1 and 2 because samba and Bossa should be notated in 2/4 not 4/4) anymore than the surdos only play that pattern - but it is the default for bossa guitar.


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In my understanding it is not 1 and 3 but the 1 one of the first 2/4 and the 1 of the next 2/4. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Will look into Faria's book later myself.)

AFAIK there is actually a Bossa clave (1&2&|1&2&|1&2&|1&2& IIRC) but like in all types of music derived from African polyrhythms there are a lot of different things layered upon each other and not everybody is playing the same thing all the time.

EDIT: I always heard this type of 3 against 4 as a type of forward motion into the one, I think I read about the bossa clave somewhere in the early 90ies but I am not sure how trustworthy the source is. It is probably better to stick to Faria and the Adolfo mentioned by rpjazzguitar (I do not know the latter book, will investigate).

BTW there was a time when I in- and extensively practiced 3 or 5 against 4 as accents on straight sixteenths or eighths which helped me a ton understanding polyrhythms intuitively.

[Bop Head]

But we're not talking about history, we're talking about how to play bossa-nova in a contemporary jazz group-with bass and guitar of course.

I think bossa nova is a perfect example for a better understanding of a style of music by understanding where it is coming from. Again, listen to Faria's masterclass.

But there is also Finnish tango ...

[Christian Miller]

In my understanding it is not 1 and 3 but the 1 one of the first 2/4 and the 1 of the next 2/4. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Will look into Faria's book later myself.)

AFAIK there is actually a Bossa clave (1&2&|1&2&|1&2&|1&2& IIRC) but like in all types of music derived from African polyrhythms there are a lot of different things layered upon each other and not everybody is playing the same thing all the time.

That is the correct way of notating it, but many jazz musicians are familiar with the repertoire written out in 4/4 in American sources.

As I understand it the Bossa clave (cross stick) pattern is something developed by American drummers.

There’s a chirality to two bar Brazilian rhythmic phrases. The clave is not a concept in Brazilian music though really, as I understand it.

Part of the reason might be that most Brazilian rhythms appear only in one position unlike Cuban music (it was explained to me that Brazilian samba for example always starts on the syncopation which when there is no surdo on 1 can be confusing to Europeans haha.) where the possibility of crossed clave is an issue.


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[kris]

I think bossa nova is a perfect example for a better understanding of a style of music by understanding where it is coming from. Again, listen to Faria's masterclass.

But there is also Finnish tango ...

The best way is to go to Brazil and play with local musicians.
For a European, this is the best school.
ps.
A few months ago I bought a Brazilian Di-Giorgio guitar/1978/ - perfect for bossa nova.

[kris]

[kris]