Wynton vs Herbie 1985

[princeplanet]

Wynton vs Herbie. The Purist and Crossbreader Duke It Out – Wynton Marsalis Official Website

I love this - it's a heavy discussion that no-one likes to have any more. At it's core, it's Art vs Pop, but it's also so much more!

And it's as relevant today as it was 1985, or 1945, or 1845... I know most of you know what to expect, but I urge you to take a few minutes to read it, and then give us your take. Is your view any different to what it would have been in 1985? I know mine is!

[princeplanet]

... scroll down beneath the preamble if you just wanna get to the interview. Enjoy!

[Litterick]

Insightful.

[Doctor Jeff]

Wow that's a long interview.

I would think they've both changed since then. Herbie since he has done even more pop-oriented things, including his work with Joni Mitchell and playing with Bonnie Raitt, and Wynton has played with a couple of old white guys--Eric Clapton and Willie Nelson.

But they can and do go back to playing "real" jazz when they want to.

I guess I'm with Herbie in that such distinctions are artificial. As Louis said, "There ain't but two things in music: Good and bad. If it sounds good, you don't worry what it is. Just go and enjoy it. Anything you can tap your foot to is good music."

I do understand where Wynton is coming from. He was an important "conservative" voice in the 80's. Nice for the old pros like Herbie and Miles to play with Prince, Jagger, whatever, but someone had to remind the young kids where it all came from. I think the jazz landscape especially for horn players would look completely different if Wynton hadn't come along.

[Stevebol]

That's from 1985? I didn't know Herbie Hancock did 'Rockit'.
My view hasn't changed since back then. I thought the song was good. I almost never watched music videos back then.

[princeplanet]

...He was an important "conservative" voice in the 80's. ... someone had to remind the young kids where it all came from. I think the jazz landscape especially for horn players would look completely different if Wynton hadn't come along.

Yeah, he stood up for Jazz's golden era when no-one else really dared to. Interesting how his views elicited nothing short of disdain from so many in the Jazz community, even from those who would cite their favourite eras as being between anywhere between Swing and (late 60's) Post Bop!

He also defends (very well) what he feels "Art" should represent, and is protective of the Black contribution to Jazz in those high watermark years, and would like to see a greater appreciation for that from younger generations who he felt are being distracted by the low hanging fruit that modern Pop culture offers. Seen through that lens, they guy's a fucking hero!. So where/how did he go wrong?

[mr. beaumont]

People's perception of Wynton these days is all Ken Burns' fault.

[Bobby Timmons]

Was there a premise anywhere?

[princeplanet]

People's perception of Wynton these days is all Ken Burns' fault.

I'm not from the US, but he certainly seemed to have pissed off a lot of white, college trained Jazz enthusiasts over there!

He was (is) certainly allowed his opinions, and I guess someone had to say what he said. I mean it's 40 years later, and it's hard to argue that any Jazz created since 1985 will be remembered anywhere near as much as Jazz created in the pre civil rights period, which happened to be mainly by black artists.

But does it make it more important? Maybe that's for future generations to decide, however when you look at the number of reissued records and books written about Jazz from the 50's and 60's compared to say, the 80's or 90's, then you could probably say that all indications point to "yes"? ...

[Litterick]

Maybe it is too early to say.

[princeplanet]

Maybe, but it certainly appears the current Forum members know what they like.

If you had to pick one jazz style?

[Litterick]

You started that poll in 2015. Nobody has commented since March last year. I would not call it current. And the jazz world is a lot wider and a lot more modern than this forum. I would not put money on the chance of older jazz being remembered more than anything made later. If jazz is to survive, it must change. Wynton would preserve Jazz as a memory, to be recalled at select gatherings.

[princeplanet]

You started that poll in 2015. Nobody has commented since March last year. I would not call it current. And the jazz world is a lot wider and a lot more modern than this forum. I would not put money on the chance of older jazz being remembered more than anything made later. If jazz is to survive, it must change. Wynton would preserve Jazz as a memory, to be recalled at select gatherings.

All art will always change. Notwithstanding that, there's no harm in remembering, appreciating, acknowledging and enjoying great periods of art from the past. As has been said: "It's about preserving the fire, NOT about worshipping the ashes".

[Sam Sherry]

Yeah, he stood up for Jazz's golden era when no-one else really dared to. Interesting how his views elicited nothing short of disdain from so many in the Jazz community, even from those who would cite their favourite eras as being between anywhere between Swing and (late 60's) Post Bop!

Interesting viewpoint.

I started playing in the mid-1970s. Jazz (and I could argue American culture generally) was forward-looking. In 1975 the "jazz" tent was big enough to include everything from the surviving big bands (Mercer Ellington, Basie, Woodie Herman, Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, Jones/Lewis, Toshiko Akiyoshi) to the surviving bop titans (Dizzy, Mingus, Rollins, Roach) to Woody Shaw and Chico Freeman to Anthony Braxton and Dave Holland to Grover Washington and George Benson. But -- and it's a really, really significant but -- even the most retro of those groups took active steps to keep a foot planted in the then-present era.

That started to change in 1975-76 with the advent of the Smithsonian Jazz Collection, Herbie Hancock's VSOP retrospective and Dexter Gordon's Homecoming. Herbie and Dex' records were forward-looking works but honored their respective legacies too. Not long after that more educational institutions began offering 'jazz degrees' -- prior to that there were only a handful.

When the Marsalis Brothers hit in the late 70s / early 80s they were very forward-looking players. Check out Black Codes (From the Underground) -- it was entirely of that moment, and it was scorching!

After that, as Wynton Marsalis came to be aligned with Stanley Crouch he become more historically-oriented. It's anybody's guess what would have happened if he went to the other party and spent that same time with, for example, Jack DeJohnette.

[princeplanet]

Interesting viewpoint.

I started playing in the mid-1970s. Jazz (and I could argue American culture generally) was forward-looking. In 1975 the "jazz" tent was big enough to include everything from the surviving big bands (Mercer Ellington, Basie, Woodie Herman, Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, Jones/Lewis, Toshiko Akiyoshi) to the surviving bop titans (Dizzy, Mingus, Rollins, Roach) to Woody Shaw and Chico Freeman to Anthony Braxton and Dave Holland to Grover Washington and George Benson. But -- and it's a really, really significant but -- even the most retro of those groups took active steps to keep a foot planted in the then-present era.

That started to change in 1975-76 with the advent of the Smithsonian Jazz Collection, Herbie Hancock's VSOP retrospective and Dexter Gordon's Homecoming. Herbie and Dex' records were forward-looking works but honored their respective legacies too. Not long after that more educational institutions began offering 'jazz degrees' -- prior to that there were only a handful.

When the Marsalis Brothers hit in the late 70s / early 80s they were very forward-looking players. Check out Black Codes (From the Underground) -- it was entirely of that moment, and it was scorching!

After that, as Wynton Marsalis came to be aligned with Stanley Crouch he become more historically-oriented. It's anybody's guess what would have happened if he went to the other party and spent that same time with, for example, Jack DeJohnette.

I appreciate these thoughts. As I say, I find this kind of discussion to be very interesting, and even central to my own subjective conception of what really happened during the great cultural shift of the 60's and 70's. See, I used to think all the stuff that was going down in the 70's left the past for dead. I think most people did. At the time you would have winced in embarrassment when you saw pictures of 60's jazz artists wearing suits and skinny ties in an age when everyone was switched on and wearing groovy loud shirts, kaftans, gold chains, flares, platform shoes, outrageous hair, even outrageous facial hair!

Art changes like fashion does, Jazz didn't want to be left behind, we get it. There was enormous pressure to update, get with the program or starve. But here's the thing, when I look back now, I definitely prefer early 60's Miles to early 70's Miles, early 60's Jackie Maclean to early 70's Jackie, early 60's Art Blakey, Bill Evans, Dexter, Sonny Rollins, Lee Morgan, Herbie Hancock, Freddie Hubbard, Pat Martino etc to their early 70's counterparts. And not just the music, I prefer the way they looked (compare Bill Evans photos for example, its not just that he'd "aged"), the publicity photos, the album artwork, the whole shebang. For me, generally speaking, 60's Jazz has aged far better than 70's Jazz (despite many stellar albums from that period). Ironically, it seems more "real" and more "cool". The way many artists tried to get hip with the 70's thing now seems embarrassing to me - some of them (unfortunately) now come across as almost comically contrived.

Which is why I'm glad Wynton said what he said back then. Him and Crouch the Grouch. Some say that Jazz conservatives just don't "get it". and remind us that Louis Armstrong derided Bebop as "Chinese music". But that doesn't mean that every innovation renders previous eras redundant, wasn't there a time when everyone (well, at least the Jazz magazine writers) thought that Gunther Schuller and his Third Stream were destined to become ubiquitous?

We may not like to admit it, but I think it's OK to acknowledge that all art forms, including Jazz, will have their Golden Eras, even if it takes 60 years to recognise them!

[ccroft]

I read the interview. I couldn't really see 2 sides of an 'argument' as such. So... they're both right?

Didn't read the pre-amble. Maybe it sets up a straw man.

At the risk of stating the obvious: a great number of what we consider standards of traditional jazz were pop tunes from an earlier era. Pop and Art have been mixing for a long long time. I personally don't have a problem with it.

If we're saying that Wynton is a conservative traditionalist, I'm OK with that too. He knows what he likes.

They're both righteous musicians, that's for sure. I liked their discussion.

[princeplanet]

I read the interview. I couldn't really see 2 sides of an 'argument' as such. So... they're both right?

Didn't read the pre-amble. Maybe it sets up a straw man.

At the risk of stating the obvious: a great number of what we consider standards of traditional jazz were pop tunes from an earlier era. Pop and Art have been mixing for a long long time. I personally don't have a problem with it.

If we're saying that Wynton is a conservative traditionalist, I'm OK with that too. He knows what he likes.

They're both righteous musicians, that's for sure. I liked their discussion.

Not sure it was an argument, but they did each put up differing points of view. Surely one of the contentious points can be (poorly) paraphrased like this:

Wynton - "It's a shame that great Jazz artists from the golden era succumbed to cultural/social/economic pressures during the 70's and beyond and turned their backs on their own important legacies ".

Herbie - "Fuck that, no-one can tell me what music to make, If I want to adapt to the times and create music that connects to a younger audience, I will. Even if you don't think it's 'real jazz' ".

Of course they're both right. I was just wondering how Wynton's perspective (which I can appreciate) has aged over the years.

[Litterick]

I was just wondering how Wynton's perspective (which I can appreciate) has aged over the years.

He is a communitarian these days:

Jazz at Lincoln Center’s 2023-24 season focuses on the concept of community; the broader community of jazz; the numerous communities that nurtured its master practitioners across its timeline; the communities of consciousness that influenced these practitioners; the music’s power to bridge divides and coalesce these distinct communities; and the role of jazz – and the arts writ large – in maintaining the human connection in the digital era.

He is also more open to innovation:

This weekend, the Jalco is teaming with Kurt Rosenwinkel, a composer and guitarist who has performed with the orchestra only once before.

This is a healthy thing. Not that the Jalco was in any danger of growing stale or repeating itself, but Mr. Rosenwinkel’s playing and his music bring a new freshness to the mix — a composer from outside of the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra experience, and, indeed, an instrument that has been very rarely featured in jazz big bands in general.

[princeplanet]

He is a communitarian these days:

Jazz at Lincoln Center’s 2023-24 season focuses on the concept of community; the broader community of jazz; the numerous communities that nurtured its master practitioners across its timeline; the communities of consciousness that influenced these practitioners; the music’s power to bridge divides and coalesce these distinct communities; and the role of jazz – and the arts writ large – in maintaining the human connection in the digital era.

He is also more open to innovation:

This weekend, the Jalco is teaming with Kurt Rosenwinkel, a composer and guitarist who has performed with the orchestra only once before.

This is a healthy thing. Not that the Jalco was in any danger of growing stale or repeating itself, but Mr. Rosenwinkel’s playing and his music bring a new freshness to the mix — a composer from outside of the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra experience, and, indeed, an instrument that has been very rarely featured in jazz big bands in general.

I should have written "Wynton's perspective back then". Naturally you'd assume he's changed his views about a lot of things in 40 years, although it does seem he still cares about legacy. Let's face it, the guy's a mofo, he can play anything, in fact, that's been the case for ages. I'm sure if he wanted to he could be a free jazz beast.

[Stevebol]

1985 was a long time ago.

[princeplanet]

1985 was a long time ago.

OK, does that make the discussion irrelevant for you?

[jameslovestal]

Not sure it was an argument, but they did each put up differing points of view. Surely one of the contentious points can be (poorly) paraphrased like this:

Wynton - "It's a shame that great Jazz artists from the golden era succumbed to cultural/social/economic pressures during the 70's and beyond and turned their backs on their own important legacies ".

Herbie - "Fuck that, no-one can tell me what music to make, If I want to adapt to the times and create music that connects to a younger audience, I will. Even if you don't think it's 'real jazz' ".

Of course they're both right. I was just wondering how Wynton's perspective (which I can appreciate) has aged over the years.

I don't understand what this means "turned their backs on their own important legacies ".

I.e. what is "turned their backs" supposed to represent?

[Stevebol]

OK, does that make the discussion irrelevant for you?

Not irrelevant. I just need to remind myself sometimes that 1985 was a long time ago.

[princeplanet]

I don't understand what this means "turned their backs on their own important legacies ".

I.e. what is "turned their backs" supposed to represent?

By that I mean what it usually means - to be dismissive, or even disrespectful... I think that Wynton may have inferred that by "stooping" (or whatever) to make Pop, Herbie was trashing his own legacy. If you read the interview, I think the inference is clear.

[jameslovestal]

By that I mean what it usually means - to be dismissive, or even disrespectful... I think that Wynton may have inferred that by "stooping" (or whatever) to make Pop, Herbie was trashing his own legacy. If you read the interview, I think the inference is clear.

While I can understand that meaning (to be dismissive or even disrespectful), that POV when it relates to one's own legacy is misguided (at best), if not downright ridicules.

But thanks for the explanation.