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"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt.
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04-07-2024 07:22 AM
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That's actually profound. If everyone admitted this, the world (especially the internet!) would be a much better place. Nothing wrong with not knowing, IDK why it bothers people so much. To the point that they will think they DO know everything about an issue, when they've barely scratched the surface. It's like HAVING an opinion is far more important than having a LEARNED one. Sad state of affairs.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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That's a good point. After all, music is art. Imagine of someone told Steve Vai or Julian Lage or BB King that they were "doing it wrong". Originally Posted by emanresu
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If I ever get to the point where I think I'm qualified to criticize, then perhaps I might consider it. I'm not there yet.
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Well, maybe criticize isn't the right word, the way it is perceived? Maybe critique would be better. But they are the same thing I think? Criticize definitely carries a negative connotation where critique does not. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I think that's a very important distinction. Originally Posted by ruger9
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If advice or criticism isn't asked for, I try to avoid it as much as possible because it hurts people's feelings and they'll disregard it anyway 9 times out of 10. If advice is asked for I'll give it to em no problem even though they'll disregard it (see the i'll remember april thread). If criticism is asked, I'll try to just keep it specifics and content related and try to keep it nice.
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I do occasional peer review for academic journals, and always start with something positive.
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I had a painting instructor who offered this framework for giving a critique, in the form of three questions to address whenever you’re looking at an artwork:
1. What do you see? Line, shape, space, etc
2. What consistencies (rhythms) do you see, and what contrasts?
3. What do you think is the artist’s intent?
So, it seems useful to start with a descriptive overview, before suggesting anything more prescriptive or “critical.”
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If you give good advice and someone takes it the next thing you know they might take your gig too, so it's dangerous in that regard if we are talking about from a business perspective haha. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
On the flip side, if someone gives you advice it is wise to weigh it fairly against all you have gathered and not knock it down immediately but rather grasp where it may stem from. I received some good advice decades ago that I foolishly ignored for way too long and it was sage advice from a soundman working a show I played. Took my dumbass 20 years to figure out the guy had me figured out better than I had myself. Nothing ugly or anything was said, it was just an very wise insight from someone who gave a shit. So these days I always take my time when I get a free pointer. Someone took the time to say it and put themselves out there for your potential benefit, so they might have something good that I should know.
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Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
LOL that sounds like classic psychotherapy: "And what did YOU think about that?" "Tell me how YOU feel about it." Hey doc, no offense, but it seems like I'm psychoanalyzing myself here....
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Yes, I agree. The most intensive appraisal of my music is done by me. So when people give me criticism I always understand it as relevant and it doesn't hurt my feelings. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 04-07-2024 at 01:28 PM.
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Yeah, I probably should’ve changed the pronouns. These are questions that one asks oneself. Originally Posted by ruger9
When speaking to someone else, I wouldn’t do it in the form of a Q&A. But I might approach the topic descriptively in this way before talking about what’s successful or less successful.
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What was it? Originally Posted by DawgBone
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The question posed by the thread is completely flawed, "What are the rules when having to criticize?"
(1) You never have to criticize, and (2) Only those who don't know what good (considerate) behaviour is need rules about it.
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I try to remember, when I'm criticized, that accurate negative feedback is a gift. Most people won't give it out of fear of hurting feelings and damaging the relationship. So it's a gift.
Of course, as a gift, it may be the equivalent of getting a diet book for Christmas. And when I say "try to remember", I don't always succeed.
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Yes, exactly. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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My anthropology advisor told us: the hardest thing for mankind is to not know. Originally Posted by ruger9
Which is to say, most of us will make stuff up rather than admit to not knowing. Think about all the reasons people gave throughout history for total eclipses of the sun... oh, right: some people are still giving some of those same millennia-old reasons...
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And there are the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns... Originally Posted by Ukena
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I sometimes find myself in a situation where I need to give some less experienced players advice in order to make the group sound better.
Knowing how sensitive people can be, I try not to make it sound like personal criticism.
Example: “let’s all lay back a little in this part and let the soloist have some more space”.
This well-meaning advice is ignored 100% of the time.
I’ve given up.
The musicians I want to play with already know what to do.
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Criticize, critique, either way the same applies for me. I'm still not qualified. Originally Posted by ruger9
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Something along the lines of "working that slowhand". IOW lay back on it some instead of just playing guitar olympics. I look back and realize he had made a deep observation that I should've more readily integrated. I was just getting started though, and had my own ideas. I probably could've made a five or ten year leap if I had just taken it to heart. I always learn the hard way I guess. Originally Posted by ragman1
What was it?
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Yes but these are the sort of subjective value judgments that most people here are saying they try to avoid. Originally Posted by ragman1
And it doubles as the least useful form of critique.
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I guess to frame this more positively, a negative critique just isn’t very useful either.
I think this is because most of what we do is simpler than beginners tend to imagine. I don’t mean easier, mind you; I mean simpler.
My very first jazz guitar lesson was about fifteen years ago and the dude was like “I think if I were to ask you, you’d probably tell me you’d like to make the changes better.” And I was like … yes.
Fifteen years later, I’d like to make the changes better.
So the things there are to master are not that many, you just refine your sense of what mastery looks like such that you never quite get there.
ANYWAY … this is all to say that if I were a jerk, I could say, “you’re not making the changes compelling,” or “the time feel just isn’t working,” to literally any player in the world and they’d probably already know that about themselves. That’s because that’s like ………… ninety percent of what there is to work on.
The thing that separates poor teachers (that first jazz guitar lesson) from really good ones (subsequent lessons later, of which Vic Juris and Brad Shepik come to mind) is that the good teachers can pinpoint real concrete means by which you can improve on the deficiency they identify. And in a way that you improve meaningfully by your own metric.
So yeah … if I don’t have anything constructive to say, I’m probably not going to chime in. And that’s partly because I don’t want to be a jerk, but it’s also because it’s just not helpful
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It is perhaps more useful to think of them as tools than rules. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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