Why is that?

**pamosmusic** · 10-01-2023, 04:28 PM

Actually with something like salsa or samba or Bossa, the genres have cross pollinated with jazz so much that articulation is probably one of the only big differences to speak of on the individual level.

And they’re all beautiful unique musics in their own right … articulation matters that much.

**pamosmusic** · 10-01-2023, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

it would only be an insult if I was wrong, and you haven’t really provided any evidence to the contrary unless I missed something?

Maybe you can provide some context based on your studies?

For example, he could help us flesh out this list of guitarists who don’t slur. Which includes maybe Mike Stern.

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

I once made a joke that went wrong with Christian. I was joking about me but it could be read as joking about him.

Anyway, the only way to live peacefully in the Internet is never to go there.. to those sensitive places. There is no need for it, nothing to be gained from it and it can be interpreted differently than expected.
All criticizms has to be thoroughly written out so every word means exactly one thing and nothing more. Or else...

Or else it can hit the fan quickly. That took 10 years of trial-error to figure out

Tbh I barely remember the incident in question. I may have been a sourpuss, but it’s not really the sort of thing that would generate long term bad feeling.

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

For example, he could help us flesh out this list of guitarists who don’t slur. Which includes maybe Mike Stern.

well yeah. I deleted the quoted post because actually it is just goading for the sake of goading.

but honestly, if someone can’t ground this sort of thing in music, it’s just sophistry, doubling down on an unsupportable position out of … I don’t know? Internet physics?

Red rag(man) to the bull unfortunately.

the thing is I know who on this forum is likely to talk about what they have found in music, and those who basically never do. There’s not much to be gained by flogging that dead horse.

I should have the confidence and good grace just to let it go.

djg made the point best, as usual.

**Litterick** · 10-01-2023, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Youre going to say that you know slurring is old and that you know slurring changes the sound of the note, but that you don’t think that difference is essential to jazz.

I am going to say nothing more about slurring. The thread has been soured.

I am not going to deal with Christian or his imaginary friends. I think I shall spend a lot less time on this forum.

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

I am not going to deal with Christian or his imaginary friends.

I admit I’m intrigued by this line. What imaginary friends?

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:13 PM

Is Mike stern my imaginary friend?

**Litterick** · 10-01-2023, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

well yeah. I deleted the quoted post because actually it is just goading for the sake of goading.

but honestly, if someone can’t ground what they are arguing in music, it’s just sophistry. I should have the confidence and good grace just to let it go.

djg made the point best, as usual.

No, you wouldn't. You would use one of your sock accounts to make things worse.

I won't be dealing with your personality disorders any more. You are a bully. Most forums would not tolerate you.

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

No, you wouldn't. You would use one of your sock accounts to make things worse.

Interesting. What accounts do you think are my sock puppets?

**pamosmusic** · 10-01-2023, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Interesting. What accounts do you think are my sock puppets?

Amazing. I think he means me.

I must say, I am honored.

Or maybe djg. Maybe both?

How many of the 80,384 members on this forum are actually Christian?

I’m going with low five digits, minimum.

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Amazing. I think he means me.

I struggle with the idea that someone could think one person could possibly produce any more verbiage than I already do on this forum.

I mean… really?

**pamosmusic** · 10-01-2023, 06:32 PM

Christian is the Fernando Pessoa of jazz guitar message boards.

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:36 PM

I reckon Ragman could be one of my alts

**Christian Miller** · 10-01-2023, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

How many of the 80,384 members on this forum are actually Christian?

I’m going with low five digits, minimum.

Actually it’s just me generating all the jazz guitar forum content on Chat GPT.

i get paid $0.01 per post in bitcoin straight from Dirk. I’ve got a macro set up. It’s cool.

**Litterick** · 10-01-2023, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

I once made a joke that went wrong with Christian. I was joking about me but it could be read as joking about him.

Anyway, the only way to live peacefully in the Internet is never to go there.. to those sensitive places. There is no need for it, nothing to be gained from it and it can be interpreted differently than expected.
All criticizms has to be thoroughly written out so every word means exactly one thing and nothing more. Or else...

Or else it can hit the fan quickly. That took 10 years of trial-error to figure out

I will follow your advice. Thank you.

**AllanAllen** · 10-01-2023, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

In rock, I think the relatively early adoption of the solid body instrument, lighter strings, the whammy bar and electronics all made a difference. Some of that was rooted in country and blues. I'm not sure who to name as early (pre British invasion) pioneers. Les Paul?

The delta blues guys, like Robert Johnson, were unknown, obscure, and nearly forgotten until the British Invasion came along and showed us what we missed.

Scotty Moore (Elvis’ first guitarist)
Chet Atkins
Roy Clark
Don Rich (Buck Owens other half)
Les Paul
Arthur Smith (Guitar Boogie)
Zeke Turner (played the solo on Hank Williams Move it on over)
Eldon Shamlin and Junior Barnard (Bob Wills top guitarists)

More well known here is Johnny Smith, Moonlight In Vermont was a crossover hit and then The Ventures made a career off Walk Don’t Run.

Hope this helps.

**kris** · 10-01-2023, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Is Mike stern my imaginary friend?

Mike Stern is a great friend....and he is a very friendly with everyone...really.

**kris** · 10-01-2023, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

No, you wouldn't. You would use one of your sock accounts to make things worse.

I won't be dealing with your personality disorders any more. You are a bully. Most forums would not tolerate you.

Don't insult one of the most active musicians on the Internet.
Apart from chatting on the forum, there is also something like playing the guitar.

**oldane** · 10-02-2023, 06:14 AM

This post is #96 in this thread. The discussion has been quite heated between Litterick and others. So far guitarists like Wes, Herb Ellis and many others who use hammer-ons and pull-offs have been dismissed by Litterick as exceptions or outliers to the rule he quotes, saying that in jazz guitar playing those techniques are not used. Nobody, Litterick included, has been able to name any jazz guitarist who beyond doubt don't use them while many has been named who do use them.

With so few (any?) adhering to the core of jazz guitar playing techniques and so many who don't it could be tempting to conclude that at the end of the day there are actually very few true jazz guitarists out there - and maybe Wes, Herb and many others are not jazz guitarists after all?

Of course, that is not true. As I said in an earlier post, such attempts to fence in music with tight definitions are futile. All the great innovators in jazz were innovators BECAUSE they broke the rules, definitions and general consensus and they were all exceptions/outliers before their style became accepted. There are countless stories and anecdotes illustrating that. Just to qoute a few:

Hershel Evans to Lester Young: "You've got an alto tone. Why don't you play alto?". Lester (pointing to his head): "There's something going on in here. The rest of you just consist of belly."

Cab Calloway to Dizzy Gillespie: "Don't play that Chinese music in my orchestra."

Ben Webster (as he rips a tenor saxophone out of the hands of a by then unknown Charlie Parker): "That horn ain't meant to be played that fast." Yet, later the same night Webster told anyone who would listen that he had just heard a new guy who would soon turn everything upside down.

Miles Davis: "They told me to fire John Coltrane. They also told me to get rid of Philly Joe Jones. I know what I want though."

And finally Duke Ellington: "If it sounds right, it is right."

**pamosmusic** · 10-02-2023, 07:07 AM

I mean … all that stuff is true, but the point of this whole whacky argument was that this “jazz guitarists don’t slur” thing has never been a rule. Wes broke some musical barriers, but that was not one of them.

I don’t know. Whole things a bit weird.