Why is that?

[oldane]

You singled him out. He is an exception. Most straight-ahead guitarists do not play hammer-ons and pull-offs (terms invented by Pete Seeger — the former being used first in his 1948 book How to Play the Five-String Banjo). These embellishments (if that is the right word) are not characteristic of jazz guitar, which generally is played clean.

How about Wes Montgomery? He used lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs. Now, you MAY say that he was an exception because of his thumb picking technique, but yet he became the inspiration and model for countless guitarists all over the world.

I don't agree that hammer-ons and pull-offs are not charcteristics of jazz guitar. Lots of excellent jazz guitarists use it. They are not primarily used as "embellishments" but as means to make a line more fluid and legato (like horn players slurs and portamento - Lester Young is a good example) and can thus actally help the line sound more "clean". They can add a little line variation by contrasting the slurred notes agaist the more staccato sounding individually picked notes. They are also a life saver when playing fast lines for those of us who are less than virtuoses.

Generally, I find it futile to set up hard rules for what characterises jazz. Duke Ellington deliberately stopped using the term "jazz" back in the 1940s and talked about "music" thereafter. He said: "There's only two kinds of music - good music and bad music." Charlie Parker said: "They teach you that there are boundary lines to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art."

[kris]

Of course, these guitar techniques are not unknown to jazz guitarists.

[Litterick]

if you study players like pat martino, grant green, doug raney, et al. you should soon find out that hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides are an essential part of jazz phrasing on the guitar. i thought this was common knowledge.

You can say more than 'Oh dear.' Keep it up. But I disagree. These embellishments are not essential. Most jazz guitarists did not use them. They are not required to define jazz guitar. One does not think it unusual to hear a jazz guitarist who does not use them.

[Litterick]

Of course, these guitar techniques are not unknown to jazz guitarists.

They are not essential to jazz guitar.

[Litterick]

How about Wes Montgomery? He used lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs. Now, you MAY say that he was an exception because of his thumb picking technique, but yet he became the inspiration and model for countless guitarists all over the world.

How many guitarists use their thumbs? Not many, if any. He was one of a kind.

I don't agree that hammer-ons and pull-offs are not charcteristics of jazz guitar. Lots of excellent jazz guitarists use it. They are not primarily used as "embellishments" but as means to make a line more fluid and legato (like horn players slurs and portamento - Lester Young is a good example) and can thus actally help the line sound more "clean". They can add a little line variation by contrasting the slurred notes agaist the more staccato sounding individually picked notes. They are also a life saver when playing fast lines for those of us who are less than virtuoses.

But are they essential? I think not.

Generally, I find it futile to set up hard rules for what characterises jazz. Duke Ellington deliberately stopped using the term "jazz" back in the 1940s and talked about "music" thereafter. He said: "There's only two kinds of music - good music and bad music." Charlie Parker said: "They teach you that there are boundary lines to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art."

There are many types of music, as we all know. Many people loathe the music we like, and there are types of music we cannot abide. If this jazz guitar forum were suddenly swamped by musicians who play different instruments in other genres, we would all be annoyed.

[oldane]

if you study players like pat martino, grant green, doug raney, et al. you should soon find out that hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides are an essential part of jazz phrasing on the guitar. i thought this was common knowledge.

Well, I did actually try to say something to that effect in my post.

[Christian Miller]

How about Wes Montgomery? He used lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs. Now, you MAY say that he was an exception because of his thumb picking technique, but yet he became the inspiration and model for countless guitarists all over the world.

Actually Wes is a fantastic example. Jim Mullen too.

[Christian Miller]

if you study players like pat martino, grant green, doug raney, et al. you should soon find out that hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides are an essential part of jazz phrasing on the guitar. i thought this was common knowledge.

tbf it may be a bit unrealistic to expect some forum members to have actually studied any jazz guitar in depth….

[Litterick]

tbf it may be a bit unrealistic to expect some forum members to have actually studied any jazz guitar in depth….

You are nasty little man, Christian.

[pamosmusic]

You singled him out. He is an exception. Most straight-ahead guitarists do not play hammer-ons and pull-offs (terms invented by Pete Seeger — the former being used first in his 1948 book How to Play the Five-String Banjo). These embellishments (if that is the right word) are not characteristic of jazz guitar, which generally is played clean.

This is categorically wrong.

Slurring into downbeats is extremely characteristic of jazz playing — particularly horns — and imitated by lots of guitarists.

Even those who don’t use them that way use them all the time. Jim Hall, Wes, Grant Green (somewhat less so). Guitarists who don’t slur often (Pat Martino for example), are very much the exception to the rule.

[Christian Miller]

You are nasty little man, Christian.

Stop saying silly stuff and then doubling down, then.

[pamosmusic]

You are nasty little man, Christian.

Absolutely agree with this. 10/10, 100%.

But you’re still wrong about slurs and couldn’t think that if you’d listened closely to any of the jazz guitarists being referenced.

[Christian Miller]

Absolutely agree with this. 10/10, 100%.

But you’re still wrong about slurs and couldn’t think that if you’d listened closely to any of the jazz guitarists being referenced.

I am quite evil tbf

[kris]

They are not essential to jazz guitar.

I hope J.Scofield is a jazz guitarist...

[pamosmusic]

I hope J.Scofield is a jazz guitarist...

Yeah i slur allllllllllll the time and got the idea from John Scofield.

He’s obviously not a straight ahead dude all the time, but he cited the way he slurs as the reason his weird stuff still sounds like jazz when he’s playing in the context. In other words, the slurs were essential to the jazz.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe everyone can band together and try to think up five guitarists who don’t slur all the time, and help our man out?

We might be here a while anyway.

[Christian Miller]

John MacLaughlin?

[pamosmusic]

John MacLaughlin?

Straight ahead jazzers.

You nasty little man.

[Litterick]

Stop saying silly stuff and then doubling down, then.

Why must you be so unpleasant? Why can you not be civil towards me? I have never done you any harm. This is supposed to be a friendly forum, but you have such a puffed-up ego, you are so afraid of anyone who argues against you, that you make sneering comments about them. You are not evil. You are small.

[Christian Miller]

Straight ahead jazzers.

You nasty little man.

Are we counting twiddles? Because if so I can’t think of ANYONE?

if not maybe Charlie Christian? Or Pat Martino?

I haven’t studied much Pat, but you must take my opinions on him seriously or I will take mortal offense.

[Christian Miller]

Why must you be so unpleasant? Why can you not be civil towards me? I have never done you any harm. This is supposed to be a friendly forum, but you have such a puffed-up ego, you are so afraid of anyone who argues against you, that you make sneering comments about them. You are not evil. You are small.

Very true.

Otoh I have transcribed some jazz guitar solos

[Christian Miller]

Straight ahead jazzers.

You nasty little man.

Actually I don’t think Adam Rogers slurs that much, but it sounds like he does? But I might be wrong?

[Litterick]

Absolutely agree with this. 10/10, 100%.

But you’re still wrong about slurs and couldn’t think that if you’d listened closely to any of the jazz guitarists being referenced.

Thanks.

But as I have been trying to explain to my many critics on this thread, it is not a matter of individual guitarists. It is the conventions of the music. Extraordinary musicians do extraordinary things, but jazz guitar music doesn't require those things. We all know its necessary components, because they are discussed on this forum daily: changes, chord melody, arpeggios, all that jazz. We don't say much at all about hammer-ons and pull-offs because they are not essential parts of jazz guitar. But go to a rock guitar forum and you will find they are the subject of everyday conversation, because those techniques are the bread and butter of blues-based rock.

[James W]

John MacLaughlin?

Depends very much what context and what stage of career, and what type of guitar he's playing. That being said, looking at transcriptions of early Mahavishnu stuff, there are hammer-ons and pull-offs sort of hidden amongst all the bananas picking.

You can hear slides and slurs quite consistently here, though I find his picking technique itself to be quite smooth -

[pamosmusic]

Thanks.

But as I have been trying to explain to my many critics on this thread, it is not a matter of individual guitarists. It is the conventions of the music. Extraordinary musicians do extraordinary things, but jazz guitar music doesn't require those things. We all know its necessary components, because they are discussed on this forum daily: changes, chord melody, arpeggios, all that jazz. We don't say much at all about hammer-ons and pull-offs because they are not essential parts of jazz guitar. But go to a rock guitar forum and you will find they are the subject of everyday conversation, because those techniques are the bread and butter of blues-based rock.

I don’t know who “we” is in this context, but any serious examination of jazz guitar will tell you that slurring is absolutely an essential part of jazz guitar.

Jazz, broadly speaking, emphasizes upbeats and de-emphasizes downbeats. There are a lot of ways of doing this. For example, articulating everything and accenting upbeats, ghosting downbeats, or using slurs to avoid sinking into the downbeats.

All jazz musicians use some combination of the above, along with regularly slurring triplets and turns, and accenting various other points in the line. Slurring is by far the most common, because it’s subtler, easier to execute at tempo, and generally sounds smoother. Most jazz musicians will tell you these characteristic patterns in the articulation are more important to a swing feel than the rhythmic component everyone thinks about (the elongated first eighth note). Lots of people play straight eighth notes at all tempos and still swing. No one can play a rhythmic swing at 300bpm. The essential component of swing is the articulation.

Any serious listening to any good jazz guitarist would show this immediately. There a loads of ways to get a good jazz sound, but slurs are essential—to varying degrees—in all of them.