The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Thinking about music is fine so long as you don't do while actually playing music.

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  3. #52

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    Leonard Bernstein - The Unanswered Question

    https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...jrbu6XHchNDCv9

  4. #53

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    I picked up a copy of Berliner's Thinking in Jazz this afternoon. I was astonished to find it is written in words.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Truth be told, you have to do an awful lot of thinking about music to get to the place where you don't have to think about music.
    This is basically what I was going to say- exactly right. I would even say that's the goal.

    But do we ever really get there? Or is it all really just constant exploration/discovery (thinking, at least to some extent)?

    I feel like there ARE players who get there, but then also it seems those same players will tell you they are NOT there, and likely will never get there. It's all degrees. That's part of the fun/journey!

    Thinking doesn't ruin music- OVERthinking does. But then OVERthinking ruins most things.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    There is a famous process of moral and spiritual growth that is documented in many writings, the most well known being Paul Ricoeur in, I think, The Symbolism of Evil. Put in a spiritual or religious context, the idea is we start out with Naivete. We accept that our speech and thoughts about matters of good, evil, god, etc. are directly connected. We speak of them the same way, and with the same certainty, as we speak of objects in the world. But then as we reflect, analyze, question, and ponder, we reach a second stage, Critical Awareness. Now we know how loose the connection is between our thoughts and words, on the one hand, and the things we speak of or think about, on the other. We say "god" now and realize we actually don't know what or who god is. We speak of good and evil, but realize "compared to what?" and "Where did I get my notions of good and evil?" There opens then a distance between us and the very beliefs and values we once spoke of so freely and easily, so directly. But then as we continue on that road, we realize that even our critique is naive! Our analysis and critique are just as ultimately uninformed and uncertain as our original naive beliefs! What if there really is good, evil, god, etc? At this point it becomes possible to enter the Second Naivete. We return to many of our original beliefs, statements, and ideas, and we believe they do in some genuine way point to things that are real, but we have a certain distance, a certain... humility... in doing so. We believe, but all the while, we know our unbelief.

    I think this happens in many, if not most domains. Being in love, for example. Or Mark Twain for example--he spoke so romantically about the life of the river-boat pilot, until he trained to become one. Then he realized how dangerous it is. Every swirl in the river that he thought beautiful now he knows might conceal a sand bar or other hazard to his vessel and passengers. He actually says nobody who really knows the river would ever want to be a riverboat pilot. BUT... he is writing this in retirement beside the river, admiring the boats as they go up and down the river, and loving the river about which he wrote for his entire life. You can see the 3 stages right there.

    So many music? We start out all feeling, intuition, ears and (some) chops. But to grow, we have to learn, analyze, critique, and struggle. Soon we become distanced from the very things we love about this music. But continuing on the search, the journey, one day we realize that all those slogans about "learn you theory then forget that shit and just play" were true, but only true of the "third stage" where you have have done your homework, stepped back from your own playing a thousand times, pondered just giving up, but always coming back. Then one day you realize that you have been playing mainly from intuition and interaction with what you're hearing, but with all that learning and pain behind it, driving it.

    Anyhow, something to ponder. Or roll your eyes at, or just laugh out loud can call BS.
    Wow. Right on. Certainly mimics my learnings/experiences. Bravo!

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Thinking about music is fine so long as you don't do while actually playing music.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I picked up a copy of Berliner's Thinking in Jazz this afternoon. I was astonished to find it is written in words.
    That's a well-researched book. Real nuts and bolts.

  9. #58

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    I have a lot of reading ahead of me.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I have a lot of reading ahead of me.
    I recommend you play more songs instead.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Chomsky:

    Noam Chomsky is clearly brilliant. He came from a point of view that there are language universals (things common to all languages, and that beneath the lexicon and syntax the same underlying linguistic structures are in play for all humans in all languages). In this video he briefly says something about how music may have come from the language devices in humans. I know this isn't really the conversation, but it seems much more reasonable that language and music (and math, and all pattern detection in human brains) is better thought of as an extension of our incredible cognitive abilities, and not something necessarily universal or "special to humans"...it's just that we are the only animal alive today with enough cognitive power to assemble the patterns of language. He even says there is no reason evolution would select for people good at math...but it would select for high cognitive abilities. So to me music and language are essentially the same thing in the human brain, it's just that one is a part of every human's every day life so it becomes beyond 2nd nature and very easy. Music, even for professionals, is not as common place as verbal communication. Consequently we have to think more about it. Maybe music should be thought of more in terms of a second language acquisition...most of us will have to think a lot for a long long time before it flows naturally. And even at that, most second language learners still do math and other high level cognitive processes in their native language. This interests me a lot...I'm sorry for boring the rest of you

    Another thought is, when we record people speaking and transcribe, it is FAR different than how a grammar book would say language works. This is why Jazz is such a good analogy because it's impromptu and has to come from a place where the concepts have been internalized.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    When we were young, there was no thinking. Just feelings without much or rather ANY consideration, and it was fine.

    When we think about music, the thoughts about it are never "musical". The thoughts are about music but we don't think in... "music".

    Not speaking about theory here really.
    I don't really understand what you're getting at.

    But I find thinking about a piece of music, whether in emotional, auditory, technical performance skill, or music-theory terms, tends to enhance my appreciation of a piece.


    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    When we were young, there was no thinking. ...
    Ain't that the truth.

  13. #62

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    I'll give my art teacher spiel...

    When you were really young, you just drew pictures. You didn't care about the results so much as you cared about the joy of putting a crayon or marker on paper. And that's a beautiful thing. The art is precious in it's own way, it lacks in refinement, but contains a joyous spirit. It hangs in the galleries of refrigerator doors with popsicle stick frames...and then something horrible happens.

    We start to worry if we are any good.

    And in that moment, there's a choice made...either to get better or to give up, and say things like "oh, I'm just not talented," always more an excuse than a true lament.

    It takes work, but you CAN get back to that childlike state of wonder, where the process itself again becomes the most enjoyable part. But it takes WORK.

  14. #63

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    Does thinking about music ruin it a bit?

    I don't think about 'music' in the abstract. I think about things I'm working on, making sure I get the most out of them. Certainly doesn't ruin them, quite the contrary.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    When you were really young, you just drew pictures. You didn't care about the results so much as you cared about the joy of putting a crayon or marker on paper. And that's a beautiful thing. The art is precious in it's own way, it lacks in refinement, but contains a joyous spirit. It hangs in the galleries of refrigerator doors with popsicle stick frames...and then something horrible happens.
    Sometimes I just like the way the guitar feels against my body, and the way the strings feel under my fingers. Sometimes I'll pick up my classical just to feel the nylon strings. The music I make at those times is irrelevant, it's the process of feeling the guitar. I see exactly what you are saying when my daughter draws. She has zero plan and the act of putting pen or pencil or crayon or paint to paper is what is important to her. In a very esoteric way I have grown to love the medium as much as the music.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I recommend you play more songs instead.
    Why?