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I've tried to list for myself points that makes a good solo. But that is not enough.
Lets go evil!
Bad solo. All the bad things to make a solo bad?
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04-13-2023 05:02 PM
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One man’s bad solo is another man’s A Love Supreme inspired masterpiece.
The same way a boring solo is another man’s piece of beauty inspired by Johnny Smith.
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A bad solo is.. are you afraid performing a bad solo?
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I can think of some bad moments in otherwise pretty great solos. They usually involve the player simply repeating the same figure over and over for 16-32 measures, evidently quite "into it" themselves, but for me, just kind of boring. I think all players, however great, have their bad moments if they are truly improvising.
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Awhile ago I mentioned the live version of Free Bird (Lynyrd Skynyrd), Creedence’s I Heard It Through the Grapevine and Neil Young’s Down by the River as solos that were too long and repetitive. Should have been cut in half.
I can’t think of any jazz solos that are “bad” though. I have to say listening to Coltrane’s Love Supreme vs McLaughlin/Santana’s Love Supreme makes the latter seem like wankers. You just can’t compete with the Trane. Best not to even try.
What makes a bad solo IMO is music that A) doesn’t “say” anything and B) doesn’t end when you’ve said what you want to say.
Look at Cannonball handing the baton to Coltrane on All Blues. That’s genius. Virtually all the solos in Miles’ music are genius. Say your piece, then pass it on to the next guy. Or go back to the bridge.
BTW, emanresu, you’re in Estonia? Tallinn? My nephew Brandon Tarm has played cello with the Estonian National Symphony. And his brother Jonas Tarm has written several works performed by the ENSO.
I’ve been there several times myself and met Veljo Tormis on one occasion. My ex-wife met Arvo Part and got his autograph for me.
Lovely country. Hope to make it back there sometime in the not-too-distant future.
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Oh. Yes, here I am. It is my lovely country. So much for anonymity.
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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But that can be a great tension builder! A la Grant Green or Pat Martino. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
A truly bad solo is the one where the player can't get what they're going after. Sometimes it's obvious. Sometimes it's not.
I'd say one of the most sure sign a player is struggling is their time is bad.
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Struggling is not the worse. Not even minding - that happens too. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Here's one.
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The transcendentals of the ancients were Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, so
categorized because they transcend the values of a particular time & place.
Jazz interprets these musically as what's Authentic, Alluring, & Appropriate.
Bad solos would be some threshold combination of phony, ugly, and wrong.
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“Bad” is a pretty strong word, but a Grade B or worse solo might involve either of the two:
1. Climaxing too early.
2. Never climaxing.
OTOH - soloists who play for singers have often held back - as have sidemen for instrumental soloists - so as not to upstage the “star”.Last edited by Jazzjourney4Eva; 04-14-2023 at 01:04 AM.
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A bad solo is when the player doesn't execute their ideas.
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There is no bad solo - there is a bad player.
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I’d say that there’s bad in the sense of incompetently executed and bad in the sense of (for lack of a better term) aesthetically weak.
One doesn’t often hear incompetence on commercially released jazz recordings, but one encounters it a lot in the wild. I’d say the big indicators of that are shaky time and fumbling around to find notes that fit the changes.
Artistically weak is subjective, but one thing I don’t like to hear is long uninterrupted runs of 1/8 notes that give a sense playing exercises. So I guess lack of phrasing, rhythmic variety, and adventure in note choices in otherwise well executed playing is “bad” to my tastes.
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Actually Grant Green(My Favorite Things) and Pat Martino (Sunny) are exactly who I had in mind. Those don't build tension, they build hostility (in me at least). I think they are spots where these fantastic players simply weren't hearing anything and they are holding the spot until the ideas start up again. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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These solos are great!!! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I think it's much more a product of these guys' musical backgrounds then them being "out of ideas." Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Blues, R&B, Gospel music...that type of repetition is very much a thing. And it's not a chance, I think these are planned "climaxes" if you will, or "on the edges" (all this talk of climaxing sounds dirty after a while doesn't it?) you gotta know going in that it's going to work over a whole set of chords.
EDIT: I hadn't listened to that solo on Sunny in ages, I yelled "yeah" out loud 3 different times during. it
Last edited by mr. beaumont; 04-14-2023 at 12:22 PM.
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I think you also have to consider this kind of repetition in context. Martino may be playing static figures, but the band is not. You can almost think of the repeated figure as a quasi "suspension" holding an element constant while everything else moves toward a new stasis, whereupon Martino plays something different and begins the process again. Also, that kind of repetition invokes a big audience response, and a kind of feedback loop of band and audience energy. The effect of all of this in the room is a lot different from listening to it at home. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think it's much more a product of these guys' musical backgrounds then them being "out of ideas."
Blues, R&B, Gospel music...that type of repetition is very much a thing. And it's not a chance, I think these are planned "climaxes" if you will, or "on the edges" (all this talk of climaxing sounds dirty after a while doesn't it?) you gotta know going in that it's going to work over a whole set of chords.
EDIT: I hadn't listened to that solo on Sunny in ages, I yelled "yeah" out loud 3 different times during. it
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A bad solo is I guess the opposite of a good solo. Nothing happens by happenstance in a good solo. It's when every idea that you hear sounds like it was planned to be played right there all along. A good solo really sounds like a composition.
Tommy Flanagan's solo here is one example, IMO. You all heard this tune many times. In fact, the whole performance sounds like it was composed and carefully arranged. That's probably true for every Wes tune.
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w/all due respect to my friend Lawson, I've NEVER heard Pat Martino run out of ideas, not even for a second,
he's a wellspring of improvisational ideas. every once in awhile I find myself using that device, maybe because it's subconsciously part of my vocabulary at this point. I never think about it but I'm sure I got it from Pat/Grant Green
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This is a bad solo (while also being absolutely genius)
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Play all the things that you wouldn't play to make a good solo? But some listeners might like that. Going against the grain, avant-garde, etc. So the bad solo becomes a good solo. So, if you can't play a good solo to be a bad solo, and you can't play a bad solo to be a bad solo, don't play anything. But if you don't play anything, there's nothing to judge whether it was good or bad. The conclusion therefore must be there isn't such a thing as a bad solo, just perceptions of what it might be, which differ from listener to listener. Two Belgian beers and one vodka will lead you to similar conclusions. Originally Posted by emanresu
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LOL!! There are bad accountants, bad mechanics, bad physicians, bad engineers, and there are bad solos. Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
They might not cost you money, car failure, medical problems, or bridge collapse, but some solos are bad.
It also seems disrespectful of musicians that solo well to pretend that there is no such thing as a bad solo.
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A good solo is the one I've just done. A bad solo is the same one when I hear it a week later
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mclaughlin sound here
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