Virtuoso players: not necessarily songwriters

[TF]

I just viewed an excellent video of Joey Defrancesco and Larry Carlton, with sax and rhythm section, playing "Misty", kinda up tempo. Sounded great, as well it should have, with these brilliant players.

The thought occurred to me that neither one of these great musicians are known as song writers particularly. Why should that be?

Why didn't Art Tatum, monster virtuoso pianist that he was, write any songs that we remember? It would seem that songwriting/composing and playing an instrument are two separate and distinct areas of the brain.

I'm not drawing any conclusions here, but I find this slightly puzzling. Thanks for any discussion.

[Tal_175]

I remember Gary Burton said in an interview that he wasn't good at composing tunes but it came very easy to Pat Metheny.

[docsteve]

OTOH can you think of any great songwriters who are also virtuoso instrumentalists? Stevie Wonder, who else?


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[Doctor Jeff]

I just viewed an excellent video of Joey Defrancesco and Larry Carlton, with sax and rhythm section, playing "Misty", kinda up tempo. Sounded great, as well it should have, with these brilliant players.

I saw the same video yesterday. Remarkable. If Joey has ever played anything that wasn’t superb, I haven’t heard it. What a loss…

Joe Pass comes to mind as an interpreter of songs who wrote very few. He wrote Joe’s Blues, Blues for Alican, Donte’s Inferno, Blues for Basie, For Django; guitar Blues and Seulb (Blues spelled backwards) with Herb Ellis; all the songs on Virtuoso 3 including “Paco de Lucia”; and a few more here and there.

I don’t think Errol Garner wrote too many songs, though of course he wrote the classic Misty. He is most known for his special takes on the classic songbook.

I think certain performers prefer to use the framework of a well-crafted (and well-known) song for their harmonic and improvisatory approach.

Most solo vocal performers prefer to interpret songs rather than write them, especially in jazz, but in pop music as well. Did Joe Cocker write any songs? Janis Joplin? Most modern solo vocalists who do write songs—KD Lang for instance—collaborate with a partner.

[Doctor Jeff]

OTOH can you think of any great songwriters who are also virtuoso instrumentalists? Stevie Wonder, who else?


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Surely you jest?

(don’t call me Shirley…)

There are too many to list.

Off the top of my head: Miles Davis, Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Jean-Luc Ponty, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, Brad Mehldau, the list goes on an on…

In the pop world Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Carlos Santana, Frank Zappa, Richard Thompson, Mark Knopfler…

Newer artists making a name for themselves with their playing AND songwriting: Billy Strings, Molly Tuttle, Guy Clark Jr., Derek Trucks/Susan Tedeschi…

I think nowadays except for very narrow genres of solo vocalists (Michael Buble, Adele, etc.) and perhaps jazz musicians who stick solely to standards it’s expected you will write your own material. Some do it better than others of course.

[Doctor Jeff]

^^You mentioned Stevie Wonder, and I think he could get a nod as the most well-rounded musician in terms of musical ability, songwriting and vocals. Prince might be on a par.

As far as multi-instrument virtuosity I’d list Joey Defrancesco—virtuoso at 3 instruments (more if you separate out keyboards), David Sancious, Billy Strings, Doc Watson and Mark O’Connor as among the very best at playing multiple instruments.

Don’t forget Joey sings not too badly. He has written quite a few songs, including almost all on the album In the Key of the Universe, but he is not known as a song composer.

[AndyV]

That's the Richard "Groove" Holmes arrangement of Misty. So there's composing but there's also re-composing via arrangement kind of like Clapton did when he re-vamped Layla as a groovy blues shuffle.

[MarkRhodes]

Among jazz guitarists, Wes probably composed the best tunes.
Overall, Bird was the virtuoso who composed the most memorable tunes. Or Sonny Rollins.
Songwriting (composing) is its own thing.
Irving Berlin was no virtuoso and not much of a singer, but I don't know that anyone ever wrote more great songs than he did.

[docsteve]

Surely you jest?

(don’t call me Shirley…)

There are too many to list.

Off the top of my head: Miles Davis, Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Jean-Luc Ponty, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, Brad Mehldau, the list goes on an on…

In the pop world Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Carlos Santana, Frank Zappa, Richard Thompson, Mark Knopfler…

Newer artists making a name for themselves with their playing AND songwriting: Billy Strings, Molly Tuttle, Guy Clark Jr., Derek Trucks/Susan Tedeschi…

I think nowadays except for very narrow genres of solo vocalists (Michael Buble, Adele, etc.) and perhaps jazz musicians who stick solely to standards it’s expected you will write your own material. Some do it better than others of course.

No, I am quite serious.

Did any of them write anything on a par with Bacharach, Gershwin, Lennon/McCartney, Cole Porter - actual songs that actual people like? The only full-time jazz musician who wrote popular tunes is Duke and he‘s not remembered for his piano playing.


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[princeplanet]

Wayne Shorter was certainly no slouch in either dept...

[Jonah]

Miles Davis, Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Jean-Luc Ponty, Pat Metheny, John Scofield, Brad Mehldau, the list goes on an on…

In the pop world Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Carlos Santana, Frank Zappa, Richard Thompson, Mark Knopfler…

I would not say Scofield, Clapton, Beck, Knopfler at least are virtuoso players... even Hendrix and Zappa....

Virtuosity for me is some kind of artistic spirit that is based on a technical ability in conventional field that seems beyond human abilities... virtuosity for me is often connected with particular stage artistism too, kind of shine, gloss, sparkles (it can be a fun or serious in character but it is always there).
It makes it always to some degree a bit 'superficial' - like 'look how I can do it!' - but it does not mean it is bad of course and it does not deprive a virtuoso from ability to be deep. Great virtuoso just incorporates that character always in his interpretations, uses it for his own benefit as a part of language.

And it is important that virtuosity should be always in conventional technical field: conventional speed, articulation, dynamics the same way that others do - but faster, cleaner, lighter.

Having his own way of thorough control of the instrument (like Hendrix of Beck did) is not virtuosity.

Virtuosity is attitude. Aspiration and ability to impress with this control over the instrument as it is.

For example Benson sounds always like a virtuoso even when he plays simple and not fast. Joe Pass too, McLaughlin for sure, Al Di Meola, Oscar Peterson, Wynton Marsalis, Julian Lage.

But not Scofield who of course can be very fast and groovy - but he does not sound like a virtuoso.
Coltrane can be extemely fast but he is not virtuoso at all.
Bill Evans has a tremendous control over the piano, he can make it litterally speak (sometimes it even scares me) and he can be fast and clean if needed. But he never sounds virtuoso.

In classical Kremer is virtuoso but Menuhin not.

[Doctor Jeff]

No, I am quite serious.

Did any of them write anything on a par with Bacharach, Gershwin, Lennon/McCartney, Cole Porter - actual songs that actual people like? The only full-time jazz musician who wrote popular tunes is Duke and he‘s not remembered for his piano playing.

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Seems like a reductive argument to me. You seem to be focusing on musicians writing for the pop music market, especially vocal music. That is certainly a small segment right now. While I admire all of the above, I would put Chick Corea’s songwriting right at the top, and Pat Metheny as well. Some of their songs even have vocals.

I would not say Scofield, Clapton, Beck, Knopfler at least are virtuoso players... even Hendrix and Zappa....

Virtuosity for me is some kind of artistic spirit that is based on a technical ability in conventional field that seems beyond human abilities... virtuosity for me is often connected with particular stage artistism too, kind of shine, gloss, sparkles (it can be a fun or serious in character but it is always there).
It makes it always to some degree a bit 'superficial' - like 'look how I can do it!' - but it does not mean it is bad of course and it does not deprive a virtuoso from ability to be deep. Great virtuoso just incorporates that character always in his interpretations, uses it for his own benefit as a part of language.

And it is important that virtuosity should be always in conventional technical field: conventional speed, articulation, dynamics the same way that others do - but faster, cleaner, lighter.

Having his own way of thorough control of the instrument (like Hendrix of Beck did) is not virtuosity.

Virtuosity is attitude. Aspiration and ability to impress with this control over the instrument as it is.

For example Benson sounds always like a virtuoso even when he plays simple and not fast. Joe Pass too, McLaughlin for sure, Al Di Meola, Oscar Peterson, Wynton Marsalis, Julian Lage.

But not Scofield who of course can be very fast and groovy - but he does not sound like a virtuoso.
Coltrane can be extemely fast but he is not virtuoso at all.
Bill Evans has a tremendous control over the piano, he can make it litterally speak (sometimes it even scares me) and he can be fast and clean if needed. But he never sounds virtuoso.

In classical Kremer is virtuoso but Menuhin not.

In general the definition of a virtuoso is a highly skilled artist. By that definition all the above would fit.

Your definition of “some kind of artistic spirit that is based on a technical ability in conventional field that seems beyond human abilities” would seem to apply to all of those. Jeff Beck for instance certainly seems superhuman to me.

I think you are referring to conveying a certain attitude while playing, maybe warmth or feeling? As opposed to being merely technically skilled.

Still a lot of people you laud as virtuosos did write a lot of great songs.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think of Joni Mitchell as a virtuoso guitarist. Not rated by jazz chops, but rated by the range of harmony and voicings she got out of a guitar. And, a major songwriter, of course.

[Christian Miller]

Jeff Buckley

[Litterick]

Most of the songs in your Great American Song Book were written by men who worked in offices for the company. Instrumental skills were unimportant to their work. Irving Berlin, perhaps the greatest of them all, had a piano made to accommodate his musical deficiency.

Correspondingly, must musicians did not compose songs. They played them. It was only in the 1950s, in the Great Folk Scare, that some thought of themselves as poets who were compelled to write and perform songs.

[Peter C]

Composers just need sufficient technique to get the job done. They then, if necessary, look for a virtuoso to play the tricky stuff. Often very different skill sets.

That said, while not "virtuoso" playing, Paul McCartney's solo on Maybe I'm Amazed surprised me the first time I heard it. Steve Winwood is a bit like that on his own songs, too.

In jazz, Gilad Hekselman comes to mind.

[sgcim]

I read that some composer said that a lot of musicians weren't born with the composing gene.

[Jonah]

In general the definition of a virtuoso is a highly skilled artist. By that definition all the above would fit.

Your definition of “some kind of artistic spirit that is based on a technical ability in conventional field that seems beyond human abilities” would seem to apply to all of those. Jeff Beck for instance certainly seems superhuman to me.

I think you are referring to conveying a certain attitude while playing, maybe warmth or feeling? As opposed to being merely technically skilled.

Still a lot of people you laud as virtuosos did write a lot of great songs.

To me it seemes that any 'highly skilled artist' would mean almost... any professional high level musician. I do not see much sense in this notion then.

As I said for me virtuosity is also a specific chracter of artististry, an attitude.

As for being 'merely technical' I specially tried in my first post to take away negative effect.
I think that yes there is a part of it in virtuosity. But great virtuoso players can turn it into an artistry and make a part of their esthetics.

By the way - Django and Sylvain Luc are definitely real virtuoso players, and Pat Metheny too (but not Scofield as I said above)

[Doctor Jeff]

Most of the songs in your Great American Song Book were written by men who worked in offices for the company. Instrumental skills were unimportant to their work. Irving Berlin, perhaps the greatest of them all, had a piano made to accommodate his musical deficiency.

Correspondingly, must musicians did not compose songs. They played them. It was only in the 1950s, in the Great Folk Scare, that some thought of themselves as poets who were compelled to write and perform songs.

Mostly true, but there have always been great musicians who composed. Mozart for instance. Liszt. Chopin.

In the jazz era many players like Louis Armstrong were content to use popular songs as their framework, but there were others like Jelly Roll Morton who composed. I would say Duke Ellington (along with his partner Billy Strayhorn) set the model for the composing musician. He was not a virtuoso, really, but he could play exactly the way his music needed to be played.

Composers just need sufficient technique to get the job done. They then, if necessary, look for a virtuoso to play the tricky stuff. Often very different skill sets.

That said, while not "virtuoso" playing, Paul McCartney's solo on Maybe I'm Amazed surprised me the first time I heard it. Steve Winwood is a bit like that on his own songs, too.

In jazz, Gilad Hekselman comes to mind.

McCartney is an underrated player, certainly one of the great multiinstrumentalists of pop music. He played all the instruments on the recording session that produced Maybe I’m Amazed. I have read that in concert, where he switches over to piano, he insisted the lead guitarist play the notes exactly as on the studio recording, which pissed them off quite a bit. I think Jimmy McCulloch would have played the lead part at the time, as Denny Laine moved over to bass when Paul played guitar. (Will have to look at the Rockstar movie to see if this is the case.) Jimmy McCulloch died of drugs and alcohol a year after that very successful tour.

As far as Steve Winwood, I read somewhere that he plays many instruments, none of them great, but I think this is not giving him his due. He really is one of the iconic B3 players in rock music, even if he’s no Keith Emerson. His piano skills are excellent as well, as his many live recordings show. As far as guitar, I saw him with Eric Clapton, and I tell you he was no slouch. On some recordings you would bet hard pressed to tell which one was playing. If he only played guitar, he would be known as one of the great rock singer/guitarists.

Sometimes when you do too many things (like Todd Rundgren) you are hard for critics and the public to categorize you, and it hurts your career and your image. Well short term career. Long term it’s a blessing (mostly) to be unpigeonholeable.

[Doctor Jeff]

To me it seemes that any 'highly skilled artist' would mean almost... any professional high level musician. I do not see much sense in this notion then.

As I said for me virtuosity is also a specific chracter of artististry, an attitude.

As for being 'merely technical' I specially tried in my first post to take away negative effect.
I think that yes there is a part of it in virtuosity. But great virtuoso players can turn it into an artistry and make a part of their esthetics.

By the way - Django and Sylvain Luc are definitely real virtuoso players, and Pat Metheny too (but not Scofield as I said above)

I think I see your point, but I would still say that the people we are talking about are virtuosos in terms of technical ability. What they do with their virtuosity—how “artistic” they are—the feeling they convey in their music—is a different thing. (For example I would say Joe Satriani is a virtuoso, but he leaves me cold. John McLaughlin is a virtuoso who plays with feeling and emotion—a greater artist IMO.)

I am not clear on your feelings about Pat Metheny and John Scofield. Metheny *might* have a slight technical edge, but they seem to traffic in the same territory in the jazz world. Metheny tends to compose and present larger pieces, like his most recent magnum opus In This Place, whereas Scofield goes for more traditional songs, but they both are highly skilled and emotive players. Look at Metheny’s album with Charlie Haden and compare it to Scofield’s album Hudson. Or look at Metheny’s solo guitar work and Scofield’s recent looper album. Same kind of stuff to my way of looking at it.

[Doctor Jeff]

I read that some composer said that a lot of musicians weren't born with the composing gene.

I think that’s true.

I love listening to all kinds of music and think I can appreciate the details of composition very well. I have played both classical and jazz/pop music of all kinds (not necessarily great, but…).

However, I don’t have the slightest facility with composing.

I tried writing a song once, called One More Cup of Coffee. Then I found out Bob Dylan had already written it (true story). So I gave up songwriting.

Hint: if you are thinking of writing a rock/pop/folk song, check to see if Bob has already written it. Chances are he has.

[fep]

Jacob Collier, Virtuoso and songwriter... at least if you ask Herbie Hancock, or Stevie Wonder, or Quincy Jones, or Pat Metheny or Steve Vai. Although, a lot of mediocre musicians don't like him.

This notion of setting a standard of popularity as a measure of good songwriting... I present Louie Louie and Gloria for your consideration. My neighbor thinks Gloria (by Van Morrison) is the best song ever written.

[Doctor Jeff]

[MarkRhodes]

Most of the songs in your Great American Song Book were written by men who worked in offices for the company. Instrumental skills were unimportant to their work. Irving Berlin, perhaps the greatest of them all, had a piano made to accommodate his musical deficiency.

Correspondingly, must musicians did not compose songs. They played them. It was only in the 1950s, in the Great Folk Scare, that some thought of themselves as poets who were compelled to write and perform songs.

There was also the realization that you don't get any publishing royalties for singing other people's songs. ;o)

[ccroft]

There was also the realization that you don't get any publishing royalties for singing other people's songs. ;o)

That's an important point. It's lead many players to try their hand at composing.

I think a great player will be by definition a great collaborator. Even a soloist will have to collaborate with the composer in some way. Composers? Maybe not so much. More like painters and writers. I think it's a different skill-set.