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  1. #1

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    I don't know what other people think, but I think that musicians should know the songs that are played on jam.
    Jam session shouldn't be a place where musicians are just learning tunes.
    What do you think about it?

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I don't know what other people think, but I think that musicians should know the songs that are played on jam.
    Jam session shouldn't be a place where musicians are just learning tunes.
    What do you think about it?
    Well to put it another way, if i don’t know a call, I think it’s better to sit out. Often the caller would rather select a tune that everyone knows but if they really want to play something I don’t know, I’d rather not have my head stuck in a chord chart (at least not in that context.)

    for those new to this game, it’s good to hang out and work out what tunes people play - this may vary from jam to jam, from city to city. For example some jam sessions frequented by the students of a certain music school will focus heavily on the tunes list for that jazz program. Older players may play a slightly different repertoire. Fusion jams have different tunes to a straightahead or swing jam, and so on.

    If you get called up to play, you’ll often be expected to call something yourself, and you should definitely know whatever tune you call. (‘I don’t know’ or ‘I don’t mind’ is like the worse response in that situation lol.) it’s more likely these days that I’ll call something not everyone knows, so it’s always good to have an obvious standby that everyone likes to blow on.

  4. #3

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    If it's a session where anybody can sign up to play, then I think all the tunes should probably be well-known and the players should know them. That said, I have seen the kb player in that type of situation with IRealPro up on his phone.

    If it's a session at somebody's house, I find that to be the place to learn more tunes. So people have their phones, tablets or books and any tune can be called. It was in that kind of setting that I learned, well, got familiarized with, hundreds of tunes. Reading doesn't bother me at all in that situation.

  5. #4

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    I can tell you when it's not..

    I used to run jazz jam sessions for years. Great place for learners, including myself at the time as I learnt a ton of jazz repertoire there. But one strict stipulation was that you HAD to at least know the tunes chords, harmony and head.

    Jump to 2022. Two nights ago I stumbled on a jazz jam full of young people with instruments. As i had not been to one for a good while I was quite excited.

    I was there for 2 hours, and in that time I did not hear a single standard played or even anything that resembled any kind of melodic or chordal structure whatsoever. It was just an insane free for all where every single person on the stage were all doing their own thing completely oblivious to what anyone else was doing. As the night went on it just got louder and louder with a cacophony of chaos.

    What was worrying was that not one of them had any idea that anything was wrong. And as the er, 'musicians' rotated and came off stage the each had a huge glowing smile that they had just experienced something magical and performed brilliantly.

    By the time I left I had a headache and felt quite ill.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 11-14-2022 at 05:13 AM.

  6. #5

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    I am surprised by the fact that there is a huge access to jazz music on the Internet and this often does not translate into reality.
    There was no internet with great jazz lessons in the past, but there were cool jam sessions... :-)
    The musicians practiced at home and did not use tablets ... they often trained their memory.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    I used to run jazz jam sessions for years. Great place for learners, including myself at the time as I learnt a ton of jazz repertoire there. But one strict stipulation was that you HAD to at least know the tunes chords, harmony and head.

    Jump to 2022. Two nights ago I stumbled on a jazz jam full of young people with instruments. As i had not been to one for a good while I was quite excited.

    I was there for 2 hours, and in that time I did not hear a single standard played or even anything that resembled any kind of melodic or chordal structure whatsoever. It was just an insane free for all where every single person on the stage were all doing their own thing completely oblivious to what anyone else was doing. As the night went on it just got louder and louder with a cacophony of chaos.

    What was worrying was that not one of them had any idea that anything was wrong.

    By the time I left I had a headache and felt quite ill.
    +1
    I have similar experiences.
    I'm not a sociologist but why is this happening...?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    +1
    I have similar experiences.
    I'm not a sociologist but why is this happening...?
    In a nutshell? Liberalism.

  9. #8

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    I think I'm hangin out at the wrong places. It's just wall to wall bop whenever I go anywhere. Usually I get smoked by some young'un who knows all the Bud Powell ever recorded.

    Or I go to a fusion jam and it's some kid who plays exactly like Holdsworth.

    I crave the mediocrity of years gone by! If I wanted to be dealing with this nonsense I'd move to New York. Stop it, young people.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I think I'm hangin out at the wrong places. It's just wall to wall bop whenever I go anywhere. Usually I get smoked by some young'un who knows all the Bud Powell ever recorded.

    Or I go to a fusion jam and it's some kid who plays exactly like Holdsworth.

    I crave the mediocrity of years gone by! If I wanted to be dealing with this nonsense I'd move to New York. Stop it, young people.
    It's nice to make a joke, but the old people listen to it...In short, there are exceptions.



  11. #10

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    Been in a few jam session house bands over the years. For things to go well, you need someone in charge to solidly organize the sessions. Also if the place is hip enough to have people outside the session circle it helps a lot.

  12. #11

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    I think it's successful when people enjoy themselves, and that's really all there is to it. As long as the vibe is positive and people (mostly) try to listen, play interactively, and support the song and overall sound, it's fine. If a trainwreck or two happen during the course of few hours, no biggie. Move on, and play the next one better.

    I attend a couple of sessions regularly. People call tunes all the time that are new to at least one player on the stand (often me). But the players are good enough (mostly) to be able to read changes from iReal on the fly or fake it and make decent music. Ideally, everyone knows every tune called, but that's not the real world.

    Fittingly, I was at a jam last night. I played what I thought was my last tune and and was packing up when the leader asked me to stay on for one more for a guy to try something on piano. He played a standard (that I know-ish, but had to look at the changes), but be did it in an idiosyncratic Monk-ish way and didn't exactly follow the form. I listened, played a short solo where I thought I should, and let the pianist do his thing. It was a bit of a mess, but it was worth a shot, and we were happy enough. Obviously, there are jams that are less forgiving, but life is too short and I'm too old to put up with vibing and cutting or kvetching about people not knowing the tune. Everyone was a beginner once, everyone sucks at least occasionally. Deal with it.

  13. #12

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    A jazz musician should be an optimist.
    I was on a jam some time ago and I gave some suggestions of known tunes...only one person knew - that was me.
    Apparently, a lot depends on what jam you get and who is playing ... :-)

  14. #13

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    Here in a smallish regional city in Western Japan, I’ve been a regular at several jam sessions on and off for the past 4 or 5 years, with a lull during peak corona but now coming back.

    One was at a blues club (sadly, it didn’t survive corona). Two are at what are known as “music houses” here, and two at variety venues. They range from once a week to once or twice a month.

    Participants range from pro, to semi-pro to amateur to beginner. All are welcome, no cutting, a bit of ego (mostly guitarists). About a third women. Ages range from teens and twenties to seventies.

    Two are managed by full time pro musicians with their band as the house band, and two are managed by the club owners, who also join the sessions. Cost is between 1000 and 2000JPY.

    Aside from the now closed blues club, repertoire is for the most part standards, with some bossa and funk depending on who shows up. Similar to the Real Books, everyone has the two volume “Jazz Standard Bible.”

    Participants take turns calling tunes, one each. Some call tunes they’re working on, others ones they know well, some call tunes that most everyone knows (e.g. Autumn Leaves, Days of Wine and Roses, All the Things You Are, Ipanema, Blue Bossa, You’d Be So Nice, Summertime, etc.). Reading from the JSB or iReal is not frowned upon at all, since beginners are welcome. Some bring their own charts (mostly singers, though others as well).

    Based on that admittedly limited experience, I’d say that a jam session is successful when most if not all participants have fun.

  15. #14

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    I think that when someone goes to a jam in previously known places, it's easier. He knows what to expect.
    For me, a big challenge is jam, which I am on for the first time / I mean a place-club etc.

  16. #15

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    I've been the house band leader for a weekly jazz jam for about 5 years and a weekly blues jam for 15. Prior to that, I played in the house bands at several in our area for many years. To me, success is easily measured: it's successful if it retains a competent and loyal house band (or at least a rhythm section), decent regular attendance of players and patrons for the size of the venue, at least a few good regional pros at every session, a few new players who try it out and become regulars, a good stage navigator to run it, and no operating deficit for the club owner. A little profit doesn't hurt

    It's a responsibility of the house band to make newbies and less experienced players feel good about what they're doing and to help them improve over time (no matter how slowly and painfully). They have to feel it's worth their while to attend and want to return, which they won't do if they're made to feel inferior, unworthy etc - they have to be happy that they participated, even if they're not happy with their playing. We also have to fill seats with eating, drinking customers who come to hear the music and support the jammers. Applause for a solo really perks up the newbies!

    The house band leader has to manage the tunes by calling solos, endings etc and by making sure that those who clearly don't know the tune lay out. Everybody who shows up to play has to get a chance to play, and it has to be on the basis of a signup sheet or other system. The jam will fail if playing time is based on how well the house band knows or likes the player. Anyone who leaves without getting a chance to play in turn will probably not come back and will badmouth the place and all connected with it. And there's no substitute for bad publicity! One online rant can change the course of business.

  17. #16

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    A successful jam is one where people know when not to play.

  18. #17

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    There are jam sessions, and there are jam sessions. IME they're all different, some much more organized and curated than others. The only way I know to judge success is if the players enjoyed themselves. I've been to some where ego was certainly involved, and I've been a regular at one where anyone was tolerated, at any skill level, although most were pretty good. I enjoyed that one more than the others, because the atmosphere was relaxed, friendly, and all had a good time. We sat in a circle, more or less, maybe 8 to 20 people who played, more who just listened, and it went around the circle, when it was your turn you called any tune in any key, and it went until most were tired and ready to quit. I loved it, and drove many miles to get to it. I've been to others, more organized, much louder, which I didn't enjoy nearly as much, and didn't attend very long. Every one is different, and at a different level. If I enjoy the atmosphere and have a good time, I don't care at all about the level of playing, how many people know or don't know a tune, or whether anyone is reading or stumbling through a tune. All that really matters is whether I enjoy myself, and I don't have to play with professionals to do that.

  19. #18

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    A couple more thoughts:

    I rarely go to public jams. Here's my experience from the last time I did it. The jam was run by a saxophonist who has a Grammy. Great player, good organizer and considerate leader. The place has a B3 and, mostly, the organist kicked bass. Good drummer in the house band and at least one local pro sitting in. Lots of horns, a few guitarists.

    Leader sees your instrument case and greets you. Calls you up when it's time. One of the guitarists offered use of his amp, a Katana, which was in the back of the stage where I couldn't even see it. Somebody plugged me in and that was that. I play with a pedalboard, usually sitting, but in this situation I had to stand and there was barely time to get the pedalboard plugged in and check my tuning.

    You get to pick two tunes. I called I Should Care first. The leader asked me to call something else because he didn't think the young horn players would know it. I picked Another You, which was accepted. I assumed a horn would take the melody, but I think he was willing for me to do it. I forget what I called for the second tune. Might have been Green Dolphin Street.

    The room is big enough for maybe 150 - 200 and probably half full. High ceilings. The band is loud. More troublesome, the band played without dynamics. There was no reduction in volume at the beginning of solos. I often like to begin a solo playing quietly and sparsely, but the band, mostly the organist, just drowned that out. So, I turned up to be heard. At no point did I feel like anybody was listening to what I was playing -- and that refers to the kb and drummer who are in the house band. It felt like playing with an overly loud backing track (to be fair, some of the trouble may be with my hearing - too loud sounds like a dull roar to me). Oddly, when I was in the audience I didn't feel that way listening to the horn solos, but, on the bandstand, that's the way it felt.

    Later, the house band with the pro drummer sitting in, played Monk's Evidence and sounded great.

    Anyway, I didn't go back. It just felt like that situation wasn't right for what I'm trying to do. I had been playing in a jam situation with friends once a week before Covid which I liked a lot, but the leader moved away and I've been busy with other things and haven't tried to recreate it.

    That big jam should probably be considered successful. It went on for a long time (years, I think), held an audience and attracted some good players.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    I've been the house band leader for a weekly jazz jam for about 5 years and a weekly blues jam for 15. Prior to that, I played in the house bands at several in our area for many years. To me, success is easily measured: it's successful if it retains a competent and loyal house band (or at least a rhythm section), decent regular attendance of players and patrons for the size of the venue, at least a few good regional pros at every session, a few new players who try it out and become regulars, a good stage navigator to run it, and no operating deficit for the club owner. A little profit doesn't hurt

    It's a responsibility of the house band to make newbies and less experienced players feel good about what they're doing and to help them improve over time (no matter how slowly and painfully). They have to feel it's worth their while to attend and want to return, which they won't do if they're made to feel inferior, unworthy etc - they have to be happy that they participated, even if they're not happy with their playing. We also have to fill seats with eating, drinking customers who come to hear the music and support the jammers. Applause for a solo really perks up the newbies!

    The house band leader has to manage the tunes by calling solos, endings etc and by making sure that those who clearly don't know the tune lay out. Everybody who shows up to play has to get a chance to play, and it has to be on the basis of a signup sheet or other system. The jam will fail if playing time is based on how well the house band knows or likes the player. Anyone who leaves without getting a chance to play in turn will probably not come back and will badmouth the place and all connected with it. And there's no substitute for bad publicity! One online rant can change the course of business.
    Sounds like you're a great jam leader. I don't think I've ever met anyone like you running a jam. At my regular jazz jam, the leaders are pretty hands on with singers, making sure that whoever is on the stand can play what they're calling, and helping newbies with form and arrangement, but much less so with instrumentalists.
    They're very good about making sure everyone gets to play, and at keeping the vibe friendly, but for instrumentalists the actual playing (including entries and endings, solo order, etc.) is left up to the people on the stand (except on rare occasions when the situation calls for a firmer hand). At the "big" jams hereabouts that draw names and high-level students, there's no management at all. You get on stage, you blow, you get off stage.

    At the blues jams I've gone to (granted, nothing regular in a while), it all tends to be much more ragged. There are a lot of people who are much worse at playing blues than they think they are, and a lot who have never played in a working band and don't know how to make a song sound good for an audience. If you get a 1:1 ratio of tight fun songs : trainwrecks, you're doing pretty well.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    It's nice to make a joke, but the old people listen to it...In short, there are exceptions.


    I’m not entirely sure I’m joking

  22. #21

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    In Chicago, there weren't many "Open Jam Sessions" at the really top clubs in the 60's/70's as described above but rather the concept of "proteges" as Von Freeman used to call them who were invited to the famous Enterprise Lounge on the South Side of Chicago. It was there I heard altoist Stevie Coleman who Von called "Little Stevie" burning up the alto with Bird licks at 17 y.o. and still in high school and his son--tenor Chico Freeman who went to New York in his early 20's. However, when I moved to Miami in the late 70's, I went to multi-instrumentalist Ira Sullivan's jams at the Presbyterian Church in South Miami where occasionally, Dr. Lonnie Smith would be an surprise guest. However, some of the players were downright embarrassing in their lack of skills/talent. Ira was a very nice man and was very patient.
    Marinero

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I think it's successful when people enjoy themselves, and that's really all there is to it. As long as the vibe is positive and people (mostly) try to listen, play interactively, and support the song and overall sound, it's fine. If a trainwreck or two happen during the course of few hours, no biggie. Move on, and play the next one better.

    I attend a couple of sessions regularly. People call tunes all the time that are new to at least one player on the stand (often me). But the players are good enough (mostly) to be able to read changes from iReal on the fly or fake it and make decent music. Ideally, everyone knows every tune called, but that's not the real world.

    Fittingly, I was at a jam last night. I played what I thought was my last tune and and was packing up when the leader asked me to stay on for one more for a guy to try something on piano. He played a standard (that I know-ish, but had to look at the changes), but be did it in an idiosyncratic Monk-ish way and didn't exactly follow the form. I listened, played a short solo where I thought I should, and let the pianist do his thing. It was a bit of a mess, but it was worth a shot, and we were happy enough. Obviously, there are jams that are less forgiving, but life is too short and I'm too old to put up with vibing and cutting or kvetching about people not knowing the tune. Everyone was a beginner once, everyone sucks at least occasionally. Deal with it.
    The point is you respected the music and you then qualified it with: "try to listen, play interactively, and support the song and overall sound"

    If you are in a place where not a single person does the answer is not to suck it up and "deal with it". The answer is to get the hell out of there before you do yourself an aural injury.

    "As long as you have fun" is one of the most insipid and worthless philosophies I have ever heard of and responsible for the utter degradation the lowering of standards of anything of high value being undertaken.

    Definition of Jam Session:
    A jam session is a relatively informal musical event, process, or activity where musicians,
    typically instrumentalists, play improvised solos and vamp over tunes, drones, songs, and
    chord progressions.

    Maybe you are confusing Jam session with Karaoke.

  24. #23

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    I remember a situation in a club at a jam session when good musicians were afraid to go on stage and play after an outstanding solo by an American musician-jazz star.
    ...but that was several years ago...

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    The point is you respected the music and you then qualified it with: "try to listen, play interactively, and support the song and overall sound"

    If you are in a place where not a single person does the answer is not to suck it up and "deal with it". The answer is to get the hell out of there before you do yourself an aural injury.

    "As long as you have fun" is one of the most insipid and worthless philosophies I have ever heard of and responsible for the utter degradation the lowering of standards of anything of high value being undertaken.

    Definition of Jam Session:
    A jam session is a relatively informal musical event, process, or activity where musicians,
    typically instrumentalists, play improvised solos and vamp over tunes, drones, songs, and
    chord progressions.

    Maybe you are confusing Jam session with Karaoke.
    Hi, M,
    I wonder if my father ever dated your mother????? He was known to "get around."
    Marinero

  26. #25

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    Hmmm. At risk of being unexciting, I might suggest there are different types of jam session providing different experiences.

    IME a pro level jam session is primarily a social event where I will see other players, have a chat, play a couple of tunes, hear a few players, maybe meet and hear some new players, generally hang out and to use a horrible word 'network'. (You usually get a few intense music student type but they'll chill out in time.) The playing is not the primary focus really I would say. Few pros seem to think of jam sessions as a vehicle for high level music making, although it does serve as a shop window for ones chops, shallow as that might sound; but the musicians on stage are generally in it to make music.

    Sounds ideal, but there are jams like this.

    That said I don't think many players would hire a musician based on hearing them at a jam... you'd need to play a bit first.

    While you don't want to be dickhead about it, you don't want that kind of jam to be a place where a beginner feels it's OK to get up with their Aebersold to play Blues Bossa. This can sometimes be the case I know a friend who had to deal with some pretty oblivious sitters in when he did the Ronnie's jam, albeit usually 'singers'. OTOH beginner/intermediate jams absolutely need to exist for those players to get a chance to learn. If I am paid to be in a house band for this type of thing it's my job to be welcoming, supportive and helpful. It's an education environment.

    And then you get that student jam where the vibing is strong and people call Giant Steps. I find these a bit exhausting TBH. But, I think that kind of 'sparring' element is actually pretty healthy for young players, provided its good natured. It can be exciting if the young players are at a high level, too.

    Basically everyone needs to know the score.