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  1. #26

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    Expecting the average jam session to be the same standard as Milton’s at 4am in 1956 is just ridiculous.

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  3. #27

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    "Basically everyone needs to know the score." Christian Miller

    Hi, C,
    And who grades the scores?
    Marinero

  4. #28

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    From what I'm reading it's a wonder there's any such thing as successful jam session. Sounds like everyone's wary, watching, comparing and judging everybody else. It all sounds competitive and rather unpleasant. I wonder how many people go home miserable and deflated while others go off feeling snottily clever and superior? I'd rather poke myself in the eye with a stick.

    At the jams I used to go to everybody knew each other and were friends. There were only two no-no's and that was someone who suddenly decided, without asking, to play along with someone else's performance and messed it up. Or clever guys who wandered in and took over, playing without stopping. Luckily both were rare. Beginners were always welcomed, helped and encouraged.

    Unless I (and everyone else) could go out feeling like we'd had a really good time I wouldn't go near it. What's the point? That's why we often ended up in someone's house and rounded off a brilliant evening.

    The music was always good, there was no competition, and, although naturally integral to the evening, it was NEVER more important than the people.

  5. #29

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    Jam session - let's not forget about the rhythm section that works hard.
    The better the rhythm section, the better the jam...
    And the listening audience - without the audience, it all loses its meaning.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "Basically everyone needs to know the score." Christian Miller

    Hi, C,
    And who grades the scores?
    Marinero
    Well everyone should be able to work out what the jam session is for and what the level is, it's not always a top down thing. If there are clearly very good professional musicians playing tunes like Stablemates a high level, that sets one vibe. If it's more a workshop situation with learners playing through repertoire, different situation again.

    A good/high level jam need not be snotty or exclusive, but at the same time give you a moment of excitement or energy perhaps a little nervousness on taking the stage. In fact, they are often unpretentious and inspiring. And even if the player isn't quite up to the mark yet, if they are keen, have a good attitude and are clearly hungry to improve, they are welcomed. I know I got inspired by such jams early on.

    Actually some of the snottiest and most difficult jams with entitled people seem to be intermediate level. The old D-K kicks in. I speak for myself haha.

    Generally, though, it works out.

    If it comes to it and things are coming off the rails I guess its up to the person who runs the jam to sort it out. That can be done in a very light touch way.

    I mean it's a hell of a job lol. Not sure I want to run jam, although I'm told I'm quite good at being firm with people in a nice way so that probably qualifies me. OTOH I've not always been the best jam session attendee. I used to take it all way too seriously.

    Ultimately it's all in the community one nurtures.

  7. #31

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    I've had opportunities to jam with some of the greats. Most of them couldn't have been nicer, even though it was obvious I wasn't at their level. Not all.

    I've had plenty of opportunities to jam with lesser lights, some of whom were far more dismissive, judgemental or irritable than those great players.

    It depends on the individual, not the level of play.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've had opportunities to jam with some of the greats. Most of them couldn't have been nicer, even though it was obvious I wasn't at their level. Not all.

    I've had plenty of opportunities to jam with lesser lights, some of whom were far more dismissive, judgemental or irritable than those great players.

    It depends on the individual, not the level of play.
    +1
    Life itself.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    The point is you respected the music and you then qualified it with: "try to listen, play interactively, and support the song and overall sound"

    If you are in a place where not a single person does the answer is not to suck it up and "deal with it". The answer is to get the hell out of there before you do yourself an aural injury.
    The door is unlocked. Feel free to absquatulate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    "As long as you have fun" is one of the most insipid and worthless philosophies I have ever heard of and responsible for the utter degradation the lowering of standards of anything of high value being undertaken.
    Well, now, aren't you insightful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    Definition of Jam Session:
    A jam session is a relatively informal musical event, process, or activity where musicians,
    typically instrumentalists, play improvised solos and vamp over tunes, drones, songs, and
    chord progressions.

    Maybe you are confusing Jam session with Karaoke.
    Maybe not. Maybe you're confusing, uh, pretty much everything.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've had opportunities to jam with some of the greats. Most of them couldn't have been nicer, even though it was obvious I wasn't at their level. Not all.

    I've had plenty of opportunities to jam with lesser lights, some of whom were far more dismissive, judgemental or irritable than those great players.

    It depends on the individual, not the level of play.
    Remarkable coincidence, though, eh?

  11. #35

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    Those places that hold the jam sessions within a half hour drive of home are small mom and pop shops. The people that play are also the audience, for the most part, but some bring friends and family to watch on occasion. But no more than 15 people average each session, more like a circle of acquaintances within a broad community of jazz music lovers.

    One is a club that also has small shows, bluegrass one night, pop rock another, acoustic music, so jazz jam sessions are part of the weekly calendar. This year is its 25th anniversary so there have been events and special shows. It’s on the map regionally and globally. Last week a hometown musician who’s pro in NYC was back in Japan and we had a jam with him. Some weeks musicians working in Tokyo are in town and swing by to jam. Another pro in Seoul stops by when in Japan. Teachers bring their students to get some experience. And so on.

    Another of these local mom and pop shops caters only to a jazz clientele, seating maybe twenty people plus a bar and a stage, with regular shows of regional touring combos and an open jam session twice monthly, loosely managed by pop, who is also a jazz musician, while mom cooks and serves drinks. Both are well loved by loyal local customers.

    A third mom and pop is owned by a regional pro and his wife, and they hold jazz jam parties once a month by invitation only. Still another is a multipurpose venue with yoga classes, art workshops, etc., that holds a monthly open jazz jam session that is managed by a pro band.

    All of these small local sessions are successful in their own ways, financially, socially, musically. A common denominator for all is having fun through jazz. I feel blessed to be part of this scene.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    From what I'm reading it's a wonder there's any such thing as successful jam session. Sounds like everyone's wary, watching, comparing and judging everybody else. It all sounds competitive and rather unpleasant. I wonder how many people go home miserable and deflated while others go off feeling snottily clever and superior? I'd rather poke myself in the eye with a stick.
    From what I'm reading it's a wonder there's any such thing as successful JGF thread. Sounds like everyone's wary, watching, comparing and judging everybody else. It all sounds competitive and rather unpleasant. I wonder how many people go home miserable and deflated while others go off feeling snottily clever and superior? I'd rather get my coat.

  13. #37

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    Jam sessions are not for absolute beginners. A jam session is not kindergarten.


    "They need to have the experiences playing with an experienced musician. I sit down because a lot of them, they only play with their peers. And that can be good, but only up to a point—because a lot of times,
    it’s a case of the blind leading the blind, they don’t, they don’t really know what to do. They have good intentions, but they don’t really know what they’re doing." - Russell Malone



    "Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” - Jesus

  14. #38

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    At the jam session you also have to take into account that you can easily embarrass yourself.
    e.g. you play with random musicians who are wrong or lose the form of the song...
    In some situations it stops being fun.And everyone wants to show their best side.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    Jam sessions are not for absolute beginners. A jam session is not kindergarten.


    "They need to have the experiences playing with an experienced musician. I sit down because a lot of them, they only play with their peers. And that can be good, but only up to a point—because a lot of times,
    it’s a case of the blind leading the blind, they don’t, they don’t really know what to do. They have good intentions, but they don’t really know what they’re doing." - Russell Malone



    "Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” - Jesus
    +1
    This is true.
    More advanced musicians usually hear very well.They can quickly figure out what anyone can do.
    Several years ago, I was at a jam with Wynton Marsalis in the local jazz club.The jam level was very high.
    Trumpet player from Poland Piotr Wojtasik could easily compete with Wynton.That was exelent jam.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    From what I'm reading it's a wonder there's any such thing as successful jam session. Sounds like everyone's wary, watching, comparing and judging everybody else. It all sounds competitive and rather unpleasant. I wonder how many people go home miserable and deflated while others go off feeling snottily clever and superior? I'd rather poke myself in the eye with a stick.

    At the jams I used to go to everybody knew each other and were friends. There were only two no-no's and that was someone who suddenly decided, without asking, to play along with someone else's performance and messed it up. Or clever guys who wandered in and took over, playing without stopping. Luckily both were rare. Beginners were always welcomed, helped and encouraged.

    Unless I (and everyone else) could go out feeling like we'd had a really good time I wouldn't go near it. What's the point? That's why we often ended up in someone's house and rounded off a brilliant evening.

    The music was always good, there was no competition, and, although naturally integral to the evening, it was NEVER more important than the people.
    I agree, does sound like high pressure and plenty of opportunities for people to be dicks, e.g. demanding songs to be played in different keys in order to put pressure on other musicians and establish dominance, or springing songs on people and forcing them to sight read.......

    There is nothing worse than such a musician in my opinion.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    There is nothing worse than such a musician in my opinion.
    I've developed a set of rules to guide me along my path. Rule number 2 is "it can always be worse". I had this engraved on a bracelet that I wore every day for years, and I could look at it as needed to keep me on the rails. I still wear it many days because it remains as relevant than ever.

    I'm not sure there's a hierarchy of horrible. The bebop jams back in the early days of the genre were often cutting sessions in which players who couldn't keep up with the big guys were lambasted, taunted, and forced off the stand. Parker found himslf in that position when he first started out, and (as the story goes) Jo Jones threw a cymbal at him to startle him. But it goes much deeper than that - it's a musical tradition. Franz Lizst was reportedly the same kind of guy - by many accounts, he was a prissy, nasty narcissist who was not supportive or respectful of other musicians. He wrote music so difficult that only he could play it, and he went far out of his way to be thought of as top dog.

    There's always been a lot of stupid, ugly, and nasty in the world. And it can indeed always be worse. So I offer Rule #1 as a platform for our responses to it: "yelling at stupid people doesn't make them smart". Be the better person and deal with it. If it's intolerable, go elsewhere. And remember rule #17: banging your head against a wall is not all bad - it feels so good when you stop.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    I agree, does sound like high pressure and plenty of opportunities for people to be dicks, e.g. demanding songs to be played in different keys in order to put pressure on other musicians and establish dominance, or springing songs on people and forcing them to sight read.......

    There is nothing worse than such a musician in my opinion.
    What a horror. I've never encountered it and I've had a few hundred jam sessions.
    Jam sessons are voluntary - if you don't like something, you don't play and others can handle it or not.

  19. #43

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    According to Paul Berliner, Barry Harris used to deliberately scare newcomers away from jams. If they had the gumption to return the following week, they'd be welcomed with open arms.

  20. #44

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    I always thought a successful jam was when Lester & Coleman were down to their tee-shirts.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    What a horror. I've never encountered it and I've had a few hundred jam sessions.
    Jam sessons are voluntary - if you don't like something, you don't play and others can handle it or not.
    The 12 keys thing and sight reading I'm joking, bit of a running joke on here that is amusing me at least.

    But I have encountered a couple of musicians in my time that did pressurise others beyond what was acceptable.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    The 12 keys thing and sight reading I'm joking, bit of a running joke on here that is amusing me at least.

    But I have encountered a couple of musicians in my time that did pressurise others beyond what was acceptable.
    Kick them in the shins

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    The 12 keys thing and sight reading I'm joking, bit of a running joke on here that is amusing me at least.

    But I have encountered a couple of musicians in my time that did pressurise others beyond what was acceptable.
    Yes, basically, the rules are:

    1. You should be able to play any tune in any key

    2. If you can actually do that and use it to make others feel inferior, you're a fucking fun sponge.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yes, basically, the rules are:

    1. You should be able to play any tune in any key

    2. If you can actually do that and use it to make others feel inferior, you're a fucking fun sponge.
    Jam sessions should be some kind of compromise.
    When it gets artificially nervous atmosphere, it's bad.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    A successful jam is one where people know when not to play.
    Excellent !!!

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    I always thought a successful jam was when Lester & Coleman were down to their tee-shirts.
    +1...