Major third tuning the tuning of the future?

[jazznylon]

Hi all I've been playing maj 3rds tuning for 5-7 years and I got to say this tuning might be the one to revolutionize the guitar playing world someday. Its a big claim I know but here I'm going to list the pros and cons as I experienced playing through this tuning.

Pros

Its symmetrical. So chords, arpeggios and scales are easier to learn on the fretboard as compared to standard tuning where you have to learn different shapes depending on where you are at. Literally 66% less work

Major and minor triads/arpeggios is literally 2 frets

Learning 3 note chord inversions is brain dead simple, just simply lower or raise the high/low note by 3 strings.

Shell Voicings are easy to come by as well as chord structures 1 4 7 and 1 5 7 (in all inversions too!)

Quartal and Diminished chord shapes are inverses of each other

The Chromatic Scale in position occurs within 4 frets so that means no stretching or shifting when playing through any scale.

There are 12 positions but you can look at it as having only 4 scale fingerings due to the unique symmetrical layout it provides.

Tight pianistic voicings are even more friendly to play

Improvising is more intuitive

More powerful Maj/min barre chords (Assuming you have a 7 string)

Easy to play in 12 keys

You can sometimes have alternate fingerings for closed chords and especially for open voicings.

You can play minor 2nd intervals in every string set without stretching

Unisons are easier to come by too with only a 5 fret stretch across the board

Having a grasp of intervals is so much more easier

If you play for a while in major thirds tuning you might be able to play any possible scale or arpeggio in position just from knowing the scale or arpeggio formula

Every 4 note chord is playable in this tuning (though few voicings you have to rely on open strings the less strings on the guitar you have). Admittedly this is not too big of a deal as I'm almost sure standard can achieve the same thing but heck I just put it here because thats what I know.

Reading music is easier

There is more of a connection between single string playing and position playing. If one were to divide a single string into 3 equal parts (within 12 frets) its literally the same fingering as playing in position.

The whole tone and augmented scale is readily accessible to you within position (Fingerings 1-3-1-3 for whole tone and 1-4-1-4/1-2-1-2 for augmented)

One can easily play triple octaves (assuming you have 7 string)

Playing 3 note chord solos is really easy in this tuning (once you know the positions...)

Cons

No more open G or D maj/min cowboy chords. Those are to be fretted instead.

Certain classical pieces are more difficult to play due to them heavily relying on standard tuning open strings. (But since you have 12 notes within a four fret vicinity I doubt this is a huge issue if one can simply arrange the piece for M3 tuning).

Less Range (Assuming you use a 6 string)

String crossing is a bit more common

3 notes per string one would have to travel a bit more diagonally

Major barre chords are a pain to finger (its literally 2212212)

Less possibilities for chordal phrasing (chordal hammer-ons, pull offs). The reason I say this is because while major third tuning do have alternate fingerings sometimes, standard tuning has way more due to the irregular tuning it has allowing for more fingering phrasing opportunities.

Large quartal chords (six strings) are impossible to play as other possible 6 six string standard tuning chords since it largely depends on what tuning you have in the end which determine the 6 string possible voicings you might have.

Standard one to one teaching becomes more difficult if you primarily tune in 3rds.

If you are an experienced standard tuning player you would have to lose almost everything you know since tuning in major 3rds is a drastic change from standard tuning. (But then again the tuning is simple, it won't be long until one gets accustomed to it).

And thats all the pros and cons I can think of for this tuning. I think the pros heavily outweigh the cons personally but thats just me unless you are one of those who say that not being to play open G is a deal breaker

[sgosnell]

The Major 3rd Tuning
Ralph Patt was way ahead of you. It never caught on, though.

[emanresu]

I wonder why it didn't spread. Because the "pro"s are really there. I've tried it for a week myself but thought that I was too old already to change(30ish) - that was a wrong decision.
Never liked 4ths but M3rds - hell yeah.

edit: the best example of good idea not spreading is the waaaaaay better options instead qwerty kb. But probably there is more to it in this case.

[tbeltrans]

I wonder why it didn't spread. Because the "pro"s are really there. I've tried it for a week myself but thought that I was too old already to change(30ish) that was a wrong decision.
Never liked 4ths but M3rds - hell yeah.

edit: the best example of good idea not spreading is the waaaaaay better options instead qwerty kb. But probably there is more to it in this case.

The story I read quite some time ago about the QWERTY keyboard is that it was purposely laid out to slow typists down in an attempt to prevent typewriter keys from jamming. I don't know if it really worked, but it sure didn't stop musicians from jamming.

Tony

[emanresu]

Thing I liked the most was getting... hm normal voicings out of the guitar for chords. Compact. Neat. Non-dramatic.

[sgcim]

The story I read quite some time ago about the QWERTY keyboard is that it was purposely laid out to slow typists down in an attempt to prevent typewriter keys from jamming. I don't know if it really worked, but it sure didn't stop musicians from jamming.

Tony

QWERTY was certainly effective in slowing me down. I guess I've got a kind of intuitive sense of where the letters are from being online so much due to the pandemic, but it's just kind of a hunt and peck on steroids.

[tbeltrans]

There is a surprising amount of information about major thirds tuning around the internet including some demonstration and educational videos on youtube. I don't mean that there is tons information, but that there is certainly enough to get going with it. Google will quickly show these sites and so will youtube in its search function.

Listening to some tunes being played on youtube, what strikes me immediately is that everything sounds very compact. Some of the videos demonstrate solo playing, so that really stands out. Personally, I prefer the bigger sound of more spread voicings afforded by standard tuning of most strings in fourth (except the G to B strings) for solo playing.

Here are a couple of examples:

To find more youtube videos discussing major thirds tuning (or via google for other sites), I used the following text: "major thirds tuning guitar".

Tony

[rsclosson]

I wonder why it didn't spread. Because the "pro"s are really there. I've tried it for a week myself but thought that I was too old already to change(30ish) - that was a wrong decision.
Never liked 4ths but M3rds - hell yeah.

edit: the best example of good idea not spreading is the waaaaaay better options instead qwerty kb. But probably there is more to it in this case.

Another great example is the re-designed clarinet system invented by Rosario Mazzeo. It eliminated the infamous A key (second space on the staff) and made a much more efficient system. Clarinetists, being a very conservative bunch, never accepted it and it just kind of fell by the wayside.

[rsclosson]

The Major 3rd Tuning
Ralph Patt was way ahead of you. It never caught on, though.

By the way, Ralph Patt's page has a ton of great backing tracks using what he calls Vanilla chords. In other words, basic chords without extensions. They are great for practicing and I have used them extensively.

Backing Tracks

[sgcim]

By the way, Ralph Patt's page has a ton of great backing tracks using what he calls Vanilla chords. In other words, basic chords without extensions. They are great for practicing and I have used them extensively.

Backing Tracks

I use that every day to see if my practicing has accomplished anything. When you can play Cherokee at 34Obpm, Limehouse Blues at 330 and Secret Love at 340 without losing a beat, you can join my group of "Manly Men of the Guitar".

A friend of mine invented a 12 string electric guitar that was tuned in thirds. I don't think it caught on.

[sgosnell]

Ralph Patt's entire site is a treasure. I'm glad it's still online, years after he went offline.

[Woody Sound]

I use that every day to see if my practicing has accomplished anything. When you can play Cherokee at 34Obpm, Limehouse Blues at 330 and Secret Love at 340 without losing a beat, you can join my group of "Manly Men of the Guitar".

A friend of mine invented a 12 string electric guitar that was tuned in thirds. I don't think it caught on.

Do you mean the two strings in each course were a third apart?

[sgcim]

Do you mean the two strings in each course were a third apart?

Yes.

[pauln]

Maybe it never caught on because of confusion? Why is it called major third tuning?

The Ralph Patt link shows this:
Six string guitar major third tuning
E Ab C E Ab C
Theory describes intervals using the note span, inclusive; the number of how many letter names span the two notes including the two notes.

6th to 5th
Theory describes E to Ab as a diminished fourth
That as major third would be E to G#

5th to 4th
But then the G# to C would be a diminished fourth
That as major third would be G# to B#

4th to 3rd
But then the B# to E would be a diminished fourth
That as major third would be B# to D##

3rd to 2nd
But then D## to Ab would be a triple diminished fifth
That as major third would be D## to F###

2nd to 1st
But then the F### to C would be a triple diminished fifth
That as major third would be F### to A###

Six string guitar major third tuning
Theory indicates it should be
E G# B# D## F### A###

[jazznylon]

Maybe it never caught on because of confusion? Why is it called major third tuning?

The Ralph Patt link shows this:
Six string guitar major third tuning
E Ab C E Ab C
Theory describes intervals using the note span, inclusive; the number of how many letter names span the two notes including the two notes.

6th to 5th
Theory describes E to Ab as a diminished fourth
That as major third would be E to G#

5th to 4th
But then the G# to C would be a diminished fourth
That as major third would be G# to B#

4th to 3rd
But then the B# to E would be a diminished fourth
That as major third would be B# to D##

3rd to 2nd
But then D## to Ab would be a triple diminished fifth
That as major third would be D## to F###

2nd to 1st
But then the F### to C would be a triple diminished fifth
That as major third would be F### to A###

Six string guitar major third tuning
Theory indicates it should be
E G# B# D## F### A###

I never thought of it that way. Maybe a better name would be Augmented tuning?

[Rob MacKillop]

What is your 7-string tuning, jazznylon?

The nearest I got to 3rds tuning on a 7-string was my dalliance with the Russian 7-string guitar, for mainly Russian 19th-century music. Their tuning is bass to treble: DGBDGBD - not exactly 3rds tuning, but four 3rds are in there. Their repertoire was incredibly advanced, in many cases more so than non-Russian 19th-century guitar music.

But that’s an aside. You give good reasons for taking it seriously, though at 63 years I’m finding it harder to absorb radical changes in any part of my life, but I might consider it for a month or so, just to check it out. Sadly I don’t have a 7-string guitar anymore.

[Cunamara]

Maybe it never caught on because of confusion? Why is it called major third tuning?

The Ralph Patt link shows this:
Six string guitar major third tuning
E Ab C E Ab C
Theory describes intervals using the note span, inclusive; the number of how many letter names span the two notes including the two notes.

6th to 5th
Theory describes E to Ab as a diminished fourth
That as major third would be E to G#

5th to 4th
But then the G# to C would be a diminished fourth
That as major third would be G# to B#

4th to 3rd
But then the B# to E would be a diminished fourth
That as major third would be B# to D##

3rd to 2nd
But then D## to Ab would be a triple diminished fifth
That as major third would be D## to F###

2nd to 1st
But then the F### to C would be a triple diminished fifth
That as major third would be F### to A###

Six string guitar major third tuning
Theory indicates it should be
E G# B# D## F### A###

A beautiful demonstration of why this "music theory" stuff is never going to catch on!

[Cunamara]

What is your 7-string tuning, jazznylon?

The nearest I got to 3rds tuning on a 7-string was my dalliance with the Russian 7-string guitar, for mainly Russian 19th-century music. Their tuning is bass to treble: DGBDGBD - not exactly 3rds tuning, but four 3rds are in there.

Huh! Square-neck dobro tuning with a D bass added. A 7 string square-neck dobro could be kind of a cool thing, Not that it has anything to do with thirds or Ralph Patt style tuning. Speaking of Ralph Patt, his website provides a pretty good cheat sheet for an introduction to that tuning. but, like Rob, I'm not sure that at age 63 I have the cognitive flexibility to try to relearn all my chord and scale forms. Unlike fourths or fifths tuning, thirds tuning seems much more practical. Well, maybe it would be a good mental exercise to give it a shot.

[jazznylon]

What is your 7-string tuning, jazznylon?

The nearest I got to 3rds tuning on a 7-string was my dalliance with the Russian 7-string guitar, for mainly Russian 19th-century music. Their tuning is bass to treble: DGBDGBD - not exactly 3rds tuning, but four 3rds are in there. Their repertoire was incredibly advanced, in many cases more so than non-Russian 19th-century guitar music.

But that’s an aside. You give good reasons for taking it seriously, though at 63 years I’m finding it harder to absorb radical changes in any part of my life, but I might consider it for a month or so, just to check it out. Sadly I don’t have a 7-string guitar anymore.

Hi Rob at first with 6 strings the tuning I used was standard then I tuned it to E Ab C E Ab C (sorry pauln). Then when I got my 7 string I added a high 'e' so now the guitar has the exact same range as standard 6 string so E Ab C E Ab C E. Recently I got a 10 string now and the tuning I use for it is Ab C E Ab C E Ab C E Ab with an extra low Ab, C and extra high ab. So yeah try it out! Maybe you'll like it

[Rob MacKillop]

On reflection, I think I could get into it for atonal/serial stuff. Julian Bream once quipped: “How come atonal music on the guitar always sounds like it is in Em?”

I might buy a really inexpensive Metal 7-string, just to get the lay of the land, as it were.

Any advice on buying strings for a 7-string in 3rds tuning?

[tbeltrans]

Huh! Square-neck dobro tuning with a D bass added. A 7 string square-neck dobro could be kind of a cool thing, Not that it has anything to do with thirds or Ralph Patt style tuning. Speaking of Ralph Patt, his website provides a pretty good cheat sheet for an introduction to that tuning. but, like Rob, I'm not sure that at age 63 I have the cognitive flexibility to try to relearn all my chord and scale forms. Unlike fourths or fifths tuning, thirds tuning seems much more practical. Well, maybe it would be a good mental exercise to give it a shot.

If nothing else, it would be a great excuse to start drinking earlier in the day.

Tony

[jazznylon]

On reflection, I think I could get into it for atonal/serial stuff. Julian Bream once quipped: “How come atonal music on the guitar always sounds like it is in Em?”

I might buy a really inexpensive Metal 7-string, just to get the lay of the land, as it were.

Any advice on buying strings for a 7-string in 3rds tuning?

I have no idea to be honest. You might have to get custom strings (I should probably include this as a con). What I personally did was buy a pack of savarez high tension strings and tune most of the strings lower to get the pitches I desire (plus buying an extra high e for 7 seven strings)

[Rob MacKillop]

Ah, okay, so yours is a classical guitar. I just sold my 7-string classical a month or so ago. An electric will be the cheapest way into this, if I’m mad enough to try!

Anyone do it down a tone? DF#A#?

[Christian Miller]

On reflection, I think I could get into it for atonal/serial stuff. Julian Bream once quipped: “How come atonal music on the guitar always sounds like it is in Em?”

Oh thank god he said that. I thought I was going mad.

I might buy a really inexpensive Metal 7-string, just to get the lay of the land, as it were.

Any advice on buying strings for a 7-string in 3rds tuning?

that stuff would go gangbusters on YouTube. Classical guitarist/lutenist goes Djent! The kids would love it.

speaking of which someone has arranged ligeti for rock band. Turns out Vai’s a fan.

[Rob MacKillop]

What is this djent reference? I keep getting it in comments to my multi-string guitar or lute videos. Someone wit(less) will say, “But does it Djent?!” Then five people will add “That’s so funny, Dude!”, or words to that effect. I got it so often I eventually removed every such comment, and banned them from commenting again, just because I got bored with it.