-
Well I have a problem and I am open to constructive advice. For background, I am 70 and have been gigging and teaching music since I was about 14. Music has always been my passion and among my greatest sources of joy.
Most recently I had formed a Gypsy Jazz band. While. none of us are Joscho or Stochelo, we sounded pretty darn good and were getting a following. I had a singer who was multi lingual join us as she could sing in French German and Dutch. She was supposed to be pretty much a guest artist. In her own passive aggressive way, she was gradually taking more of a leadership role. (as a typical singer, she has no real musical knowledge or experience). That aside, it was still going well.
When our rhythm guitarist moved out of the state, she asked a young girl (probably mid to late 20s) who was her friend, to join us. This was without consulting me or the rest of the group. This girl is quite talented and has a music degree (In my experience, a red flag, but more on that another time). Well this girl turned out to be the most toxic person I have ever met in my music endeavors and I have met many toxic people. She would take no direction or advice from me on how I wanted tunes played. Did not try to emulate the "la pompe" rhythm style preferring to show everybody that she is a walking chord encyclopedia. (Honestly I am too, in all humility, but also know when to hold back). She started aggressively dominating the rehearsals and even the gigs; even starting to call tunes. Her singer friend was very defensive of her and would always take her side. I am not the kind of person who likes to fire anybody (it is a fault I have, not a plus) so, instead, I broke up the band, which left me with just the bass player. I am a pretty youthful 70 and still have what I think is plenty of music left in me but I have been traumatized. I am less tolerant of toxicity than I used to be and have no patience with disrespect from a kid. (Yeah. I am starting to sound like my parents now.)
Anyway, I have too many guitars and, while I want to keep playing, I want to eliminate all redundancy. I can happily keep one arch top, my Manouche guitar and a nylon string and cover almost everything I can play. (maybe a solid body for the occasional loud gig if there are any left). Above are my most redundant guitars. I love them both but I’m leaning toward keeping the Ibanez because of the cutaway.
Anyway, this is getting too long and I would appreciate any words of advice or even consolation. Many thanks for listening!Last edited by rsclosson; 10-10-2022 at 12:46 PM.
-
10-10-2022 12:27 PM
-
Sorry to hear that you went through that. My observation over the years is in line with something Pat Metheny said: "There's a fine line between musical proficiency and mental illness." Some people have spent so much time in their youth developing their musical abilities that they've neglected other things like personality development. And then they end up in playing situations with others where they have a ton of chops and skills but little ability to get along with anybody else to actually play music. This has been the focus of their life and are often quite defensive around it, saying any kind of feedback or direction as an attack on their virtuosity.
That said, there are also people with degrees in music who are well-rounded individuals, easy to get along with and fun to play with. I don't have any numbers to back this up but my suspicion is that they probably vastly outnumber the ones who are a pain to deal with
I'm 63 and I have enough pains in places without adding to them by having to deal with people who are a pain themselves. I think I might have said to both of them something like "this is my band, this is the music we play and how we play it, neither of you seem to be on board with that and probably need to have your own band exploring the music that you want to play. Let me know when you get a gig and I'll come listen to you."
I wonder about this sort of thing when somebody sends me a link to a YouTube video of some high school aged whiz transcribing Charlie Parker solos at 14 or something, playing them flawlessly. I suppose if I could've done that at 14, I would have (hell, I can't do it now). But I wonder: they can play along with the recording perfectly, but can they play on the bandstand in a real musical situation where things are changing and the ground is shifting under foot all the time? Or would they just turn up and blow through the Charlie Parker transcriptions over the tune? Or would they pitch a fit when the accompaniment isn't exactly the same as they're used to hearing on the recording?
As far as your gear goes, I am feeling some of the same sort of thing. I have two nylon strings, two archtops, a semi-hollow, two solidbodies, a flattop, five amplifiers, a bunch of pedals that I never use, a box of spare pickups and other components, etc. How much of this stuff do I need? There is zero chance that I'm ever going to be a professional touring musician who might need all this stuff. Heck, I don't even gig locally anymore and it is entirely possible I never will again even though I daydream about it. I could easily get it down to three guitars that would cover everything I need (ironically enough, the same guitars that I've owned for 32, 36 and 42 years, which makes me wonder why I bought any of the other ones). I only need one amp. I could get one multipedal such as a Helix that would replace all of my other pedals, and since 99% of the time my pedalboard consists of a cable and nothing else I probably wouldn't even need that. A combination of inertia and some sense of attachment ("wow, this is a really nice guitar. Why don't I play this more often?") are all keep me from doing it. That and realization I would lose money on all those sales because, of course, the stuff is used and not new now. So basically I hang onto this stuff to avoid seller's remorse.
But if I don't do it, at some point my wife is going to have to after I've kicked the bucket.
-
Unfortunately, my experience here is that the Jazz jam sessions (free music for the venue owners) are dominated by the college students and their instructors and are more a showcase for the music program than a true jam session. When I used to show up at one, I invariably was looked at and treated like I was a steaming pile of old man; not just by the students but the professors as well. I'm not really a bebopper like most of them are, but I can usually hold my own when playing to a chord progression or a tune. I never got my degree but I did skim all the harmony/theory and jazz theory classes I could at a college level, so if given the opportunity, I could prove I am experienced and, at least, competent.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
-
you've got enough skill in your way of life and i'm sure with your music too to stay relax, this one was a good experience before toxic people comes and became bad.
Tomorrow, you will take one of this beauty you want to sell or another one you own and love and I hope you will slowly forget the bad and keep the good, like you did when it happened before when facing other bad things during life.
-
Wow, R,
Great post! So, let me comment on things of which I have personal experience. I played my first paid gig at 12 on the guitar. It was a R@R band and we usually played 2 sets for $25.00 for 3 musicians(Guitar/bass/drums). By 14, I was playing guitar with the older guys in H.S.(2 guitars, bass, and drums) and we usually played every weekend for cash. At 16, after learning sax, I doubled on guitar/sax and we had a R@B/Soul group that lasted until we graduated HS--all paid gigs. Later, I had more work as a saxer and started playing with some pro-groups in Chicago on the South and West side of Chicago. After that, it was 8-12 piece PRO Jazz/Rock big bands(ALL SCHOOLED MUSICIANS) where I did all the arrangements and played horns/flute until the big crash in the late 70's with the Disco craze/DJ's which killed most live music in Chicago. After that, I went into low gear, retooled, and only subbed on SAX gigs if someone couldn't show up and play. So, here's a few remarks:
1. Unschooled musicians, with rare exception, are flakes. Once a group is running smoothly, someone gets the proverbial
"hair in their ass" and everything falls apart. Some show up high, drunk, unprepared while others whine that they're
tired of the music that pays cash at the end of the gig. They want to play "original" music which is a gobbledygook
of untold bullshit that no one wants to hear. And, every time they need to learn a new tune, it is a major deal since
they can't read music and take wasted time in rehearsal being tutored on the music.
2. No chick vocalists. They become unbearable prima donnas, cause discord among the group and ,as in your example, want
to run the show with no real background. They are toxic to a working band especially . . . if they are attractive.
3. Only work with pros. Never play for free. . . Never! Busking is for losers. Leave those gigs for the wannabes.
So, that's why after a 10 year hiatus from music, I retooled on Classical Guitar IN '92 and play strictly solo. More money, better working conditions. NO BULLSHIT!
And, R, for the second time . . . Great Post!
Marinero
-
......I understand very well what it's like to be parting with one or more guitars.
......May I suggest maybe giving some thought to keeping them in the family ? Do you have a grandson, niece, nephew, etc etc who plays ? Or is there a pal, student, etc , who would use it, but feels the need to buy it, in which case you 'sell' it to them for, oh maybe twenty bucks a a month ? ( " or is that too much ?? " )
.......But good luck with finding those guitars a home !
-
I don’t have anything to add to your problems with fellow musicians. My little group all got along. No prima donnas, especially not from the lead singer.
As far as guitars, I don’t need all of them, but I like having them around. Some of them are “wall art”. They provide the ambience for the music room.
So really, even though I could get by with 2-3 guitars, I keep most of them around because they are cool.
This is NOT my music room, but the last time I got all the kids together when we were painting the music room. I’ve picked up a few more since then including a 135, 175, flattop 6 string and 12 string. Oh and a Martin soprano uke.
I will probably keep most of them til I can’t play anymore. Or someday my kids can have a bang-up estate sale.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 10-11-2022 at 10:56 PM.
-
In all honesty, who gives a fk what a 20 year old kid and a singer think?
-
Ok - this could just be a wild guess, but her nickname wouldn't be 'Yoko' by any chance ? Originally Posted by vintagelove
: )
-
Well I am a Jazz baker, I am running a bakery and I love Jazz.
Things are very simple if you are a professional.
If somebody comes to work in my bakery, he has to:
1 ) Get along pretty good with the rest of the personnel
2 ) Be productive and efficient
3 ) Be clean and punctual
4 ) NOT BE TOXIC or MISERAUBLE
If any of these is missing, there is no way to work in the bakery.
Although the food sector looks different than music , if it is professional it is being ruled by the same rules.
Do not forget the we use the word "taste" for both.
As for the guitars, I wish you good luck !
-
Is this over stylistic differences? Originally Posted by rsclosson
Most recently I had formed a Gypsy Jazz band. While. none of us are Joscho or Stochelo, we sounded pretty darn good and were getting a following. I had a singer who was multi lingual join us as she could sing in French German and Dutch. She was supposed to be pretty much a guest artist. In her own passive aggressive way, she was gradually taking more of a leadership role. (as a typical singer, she has no real musical knowledge or experience). That aside, it was still going well.
When our rhythm guitarist moved out of the state, she asked a young girl (probably mid to late 20s) who was her friend, to join us. This was without consulting me or the rest of the group. This girl is quite talented and has a music degree (In my experience, a red flag, but more on that another time). Well this girl turned out to be the most toxic person I have ever met in my music endeavors and I have met many toxic people. She would take no direction or advice from me on how I wanted tunes played. Did not try to emulate the "la pompe" rhythm style preferring to show everybody that she is a walking chord encyclopedia. (Honestly I am too, in all humility, but also know when to hold back). She started aggressively dominating the rehearsals and even the gigs; even starting to call tunes. Her singer friend was very defensive of her and would always take her side. I am not the kind of person who likes to fire anybody (it is a fault I have, not a plus) so, instead, I broke up the band, which left me with just the bass player. I am a pretty youthful 70 and still have what I think is plenty of music left in me but I have been traumatized. I am less tolerant of toxicity than I used to be and have no patience with disrespect from a kid. (Yeah. I am starting to sound like my parents now.)
Anyway, I have too many guitars and, while I want to keep playing, I want to eliminate all redundancy. I can happily keep one arch top, my Manouche guitar and a nylon string and cover almost everything I can play. (maybe a solid body for the occasional loud gig if there are any left). Above are my most redundant guitars. I love them both but I’m leaning toward keeping the Ibanez because of the cutaway.
Anyway, this is getting too long and I would appreciate any words of advice or even consolation. Many thanks for listening!
-
More like, when trying to give direction on a tune it was a loud response, "Yeah! I know that!" Followed by unwanted playing of 5 or 6 variations/inversions/voicings during a song to display her vast knowledge while killing the vibe of the song. Or a loud "why are we even doing this??!!" about songs my group has been doing for years. Originally Posted by Stevebol
-
Your group. Your rules. They leave! Originally Posted by rsclosson
-
The problem with newly university trained musicians is that they. have a ton of knowledge but not the experience to know that you don't always have to show it all. Sometimes silence is the best option.
Of course, this is based on my experiences. There are probably exceptions. I just haven't found them.
-
“Newly university trained musicians” boggles the mind. How is that even a thing? In what universe does spending $200,,000 and up to learn jazz make sense?!! I guess hedge fund managers and tech bros have kids and don’t care what they do.
Kids have always been idiots. 50 years ago you probably were too. I know I was. Heck, Beethoven was a renown punk who felt compelled to play everything at a blistering speed with unnecessary ornamentation to the consternation and even disgust of his older more established peers. Disrespectful know-it-alls is what twenty year olds do best.
That said, I assume the contacts were yours, the bassist is with you. A percussionist can’t be that hard to find. Can’t you just keep gigging if that’s what you want? It doesn’t sound like gigging is a financial necessity (god help you if it was), so enjoy the fact that you can do it on your own terms.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
-
I agree. To continue with gypsy jazz, I need a rhythm guitarist who is willing to conform with the very specific requirements. The bass player and I have been working together for quite a while. We are very much on the same wavelength musically and personally. We can also do other styles so a jazz duo is not out of the question. I do love the gypsy jazz style however. I will be looking for a way to get it back together. Originally Posted by rlrhett
-
I'm sad to hear that you had to break up the band because of difficult personalities. I have to say however that I've had similar experiences and it hasn't been because of youngsters, of whom I'm definitely not one - older musicians can be difficult too and often even more egotistical. And not all women vocalists are a problem - some are fantastic.
My sympathies again and as someone who regularly plays with very senior musicians, from whom I've learned so much, there's plenty of gigs left in you
-
If you're open to constructive criticism;
If it was your band and you were the leader, you made a terrible error by not firing her after the first time she disregarded your input. To avoid being uncomfortable for 2 minutes by throwing her out you let yourself be uncomfortable every time you played and then lost the whole, previously satisfying, gigging band and every future opportunity with that ensemble.
-
For sure you are totally right. I was too passive and should have been more assertive. The singer implied but not directly said that if the kid went that she would "have a decision to make about her future with the group". In retrospect, I should have fired both of them. What I did got the same result as they are both out of my group and my life. Perhaps I would have felt better about myself had I been more assertive. Originally Posted by whiskey02
-
At least you still have the bass player!
I like what the baker guy said: being a pro isn't all about proficiency. You have to know how to work with people. A good band needs everyone on the same page, getting along, and maybe even enjoying it. It's possible...
Also like a pro sports team.
Being assertive on the front end is a way to get on with it and stop wasting time. As you mentioned, the end result will be the same. But as we know, hope springs eternal.
I've got little to say about selling guitars. In 50+ years I've only sold 3! The others died, got stolen, were gifted or got traded. GLWTS!
-
It must be the singing in different languages thing. I got a call from a chick singer who wanted to start a duo with me, who also sang in different languages. It didn't get past our first rehearsal. Nutzoid!
-
There is a strategy for arguments called "Tit For Tat". (can be googled)
One of the basic principles of this - proven very successful - strategy is the immediate reaction. Don't wait until the moment seems favorable, no, step in immediately.
Another, even more fundamental principle of T.F.T. is to ask oneself whether the other side is in principle willing and able to cooperate. If the answer is "no", any attempt at cooperation should be abandoned.
If I understand your post correctly, you acted differently on both counts.
Well, you can't change the past, but maybe the T.F.T. will help in future disputes. Don't let something like this traumatize you, look to the future!
Good luck with the sale!
-
Hi, S, Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
I only worked with three female vocalists that were tolerable. The first, were two young Latinas who were doing a special event show at a local West side Chicago auditorium and I was hired to play guitar for the job. We did a largely Latin program and the girls were not only very talented but delightful humans. The other was a pro, J.L., who liked the way I played flute and I always got a call if she wanted to do some Latin stuff. I once asked her why she didn't call me for some Sax gigs and she said that I played sax too aggressively for her taste. However, that's when I got lost with Coltrane for a couple of years. . . bad for jobbing but it helped my chops. The others . . . well, you know.
Marinero
P.S. I'm a sentimentalist when it comes to a great instrument and I tend to keep them forever. My newest guitar is 30 years old. My oldest: 56 years old purchased new.
M
-
The best singer I have ever played with was a woman who wanted to be part of the band. She could sight read music, she studied jazz and understood the relationship between melody and chords, she did not want to be the center of attention and she had a great voice. She was smart, accomplished in her vocation as well as her avocation, and really easy to get along with. A fine person. I am very sad to note that, unfortunately, she developed a severe health issue and passed away. That was probably 10 years ago now.
Good singers really are not different than good musicians in general. They know the song thoroughly, they have some knowledge of its history, and are able to bring that together and present something unique and personal to themselves. Maybe if there is an internet jazz singing forum somewhere, they're complaining about guitarists like we complain about vocalists.
-
I am glad you had a great experience with your singer, except for the sickness and death part. I have worked with a few who were like this.
My situation was different. This person was a great singer and knows her music. That was not her problem. Her issue was that she was a domineering, self centered, and egotistical person who was basically refusing to take direction and was trying to control the rehearsals and the gigs.
Reply With Quote
Playing live and getting the best sound from the...
Yesterday, 02:08 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos