The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I'm starting my own thread because the silliness is bothering me.

    Handy what jazz is flowchart:

    1. Is the band or member(s) in the band doing continuous melody/harmony interplay improv?

    Yes --> Jazz
    No ---> Continue to question 2

    2. Does the music primarily overlap with jazz elements established in the golden age?

    Yes --> Jazz
    No ---> Parent style

    The end.


    "We got the jazz, we got the jazz."

    No, you don't.

    Is there any continuous melody/harmony improv? No. Does the music overlap primarily with attributes established in the jazz golden age? No. They sampled green dolphin st but the rest of the attributes align with rap, so therefor it's rap.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    I'm starting my own thread because the silliness is bothering me.

    Handy what jazz is flowchart:

    1. Is the band or member(s) in the band doing continuous melody/harmony interplay improv?

    Yes --> Jazz
    No ---> Continue to question 2

    2. Does the music primarily overlap with jazz elements established in the golden age?

    Yes --> Jazz
    No ---> Parent style

    The end.


    "We got the jazz, we got the jazz."

    No, you don't.

    Is there any continuous melody/harmony improv? No. Does the music overlap primarily with attributes established in the jazz golden age? No. They sampled green dolphin st but the rest of the attributes align with rap, so therefor it's rap.

    Ok this is of course very dumb, but I quite enjoy nonsense like this because I am a wierdo and I suspect you are not entirely serious.

    So, ok then, logic boy - if you are doing flowcharts, I’ll need a precise definition of what you mean by ‘jazz elements established in the golden age.’

    And is it necessary for all those elements to be present in your view, or for a specific number of them, or just one?

  4. #3

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    Necessary and sufficient conditions again. We could be here for some time.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    I'm starting my own thread because the silliness is bothering me.
    In that other thread you posted this "Maybe you don't know what jazz is but I do.".

    If this is the case what does creating your own thread do for you since there isn't anything you can learn from others on this topic?

  6. #5
    Don't get all bitter because I don't live in logic lala land and know how to define the music I've been playing for 20 years lol!

    Yes, Christian, I am serious. Are you serious? Do you view yourself as the arbiter of this forum? I'd be glad to go example by example if you want to go over the characteristics because I'm not writing out a comprehensive list just for you to compulsively try to out semanticize me. Examples are big band where improv is limited or modal like so what where changes are forgone.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    Don't get all bitter because I don't live in logic lala land and know how to define the music I've been playing for 20 years lol!

    Yes, Christian, I am serious. Are you serious? Do you view yourself as the arbiter of this forum? I'd be glad to go example by example if you want to go over the characteristics because I'm not writing out a comprehensive list just for you to compulsively try to out semanticize me. Examples are big band where improv is limited or modal like so what where changes are forgone.
    Going around staying your opinion as fact and acting irritated when people disagree is obnoxious. The other thread was an open ended discussion, no one was asking for or expecting a definitive answer because there isn’t one.

  8. #7

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    Yay, gatekeeping.

  9. #8
    ^ Yay not having to call rap, funk, and rock jazz.

    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    Going around staying your opinion as fact and acting irritated when people disagree is obnoxious. The other thread was an open ended discussion, no one was asking for or expecting a definitive answer because there isn’t one.
    If you want to be offended over a viewpoint which is always verifiable and therefore most likely true then you go ahead.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    Don't get all bitter because I don't live in logic lala land and know how to define the music I've been playing for 20 years lol!

    Yes, Christian, I am serious. Are you serious? Do you view yourself as the arbiter of this forum? I'd be glad to go example by example if you want to go over the characteristics because I'm not writing out a comprehensive list just for you to compulsively try to out semanticize me. Examples are big band where improv is limited or modal like so what where changes are forgone.
    So, if I can summarise your position
    1) jazz is something I can concretely define by certain specific criteria
    2) however I refuse to pin down what these criteria are because I know you will examine them for flaws and debate me on them
    3) take me seriously

    Let me know if I’ve got that right

  11. #10

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    Jazz = Music

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    ^ Yay not having to call rap, funk, and rock jazz.



    If you want to be offended over a viewpoint which is always verifiable and therefore most likely true then you go ahead.
    Per you, your verifiable definition of jazz makes bluegrass into a type of jazz. Such a definition is worse than useless. Verified?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    Per you, your verifiable definition of jazz makes bluegrass into a type of jazz. Such a definition is worse than useless. Verified?
    yeah I mean I would think so, I mean bluegrass is jazz related obviously. But no I don’t think it’s jazz really.

    I just don’t think it’s possible to prove it isn’t using Facts and Logic. Any definition that I can think of that excludes bluegrass also excludes perfectly accepted examples of jazz.

    the other thought being that maybe it’s not so terribly important to define an edge to the genre and a lot of the fun is to be had at the margins anyway. I don’t see how that takes anything away from obvious core jazz idioms like bop or straightahead or whatever.

    Otoh there’s plenty of music I love that isn’t jazz and there’s plenty of jazz I can’t be bothered with, so I don’t have too much emotional investment in this one.

    But maybe Jimmy here has some criteria I haven’t thought of, if he’d tell us what they were.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    yeah I mean I would think so, I mean bluegrass is jazz related obviously. But no I don’t think it’s jazz really.

    I just don’t think it’s possible to prove it isn’t using Facts and Logic. Any definition that I can think of that excludes bluegrass also excludes perfectly accepted examples of jazz.

    the other thought being that maybe it’s not so terribly important to define an edge to the genre and a lot of the fun is to be had at the margins anyway. I don’t see how that takes anything away from obvious core jazz idioms like bop or straightahead or whatever.

    Otoh there’s plenty of music I love that isn’t jazz and there’s plenty of jazz I can’t be bothered with, so I don’t have too much emotional investment in this one.

    But maybe Jimmy here has some criteria I haven’t thought of, if he’d tell us what they were.
    'a lot of the fun is to be had at the margins anyway'. - Exactly. I mean, two of my favourite albums are Miles Davis's Bitches Brew and John Coltrane's Interstellar Space, neither of which could be described belonging to core jazz idioms, they're both pretty unique.

    As a general rule of thumb, I tend to think of jazz as basically - swing rhythm + improvisation = jazz. This is perhaps too broad since it might include some blues or what have you but it makes sense to me for example in describing the difference between free jazz and free improvisation, where the former will have rhythms more clearly indebted to the jazz tradition i.e. swing. But then again, much of my most favourite music isn't typical of whatever category or genre one might wish to put it in.

  15. #14

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    Yeah. About Bitches Brew and slightly off topic but also related point - the jazz critics like Stanley Crouch who accused Miles of ‘grovelling before commercial arenas’ and I always think that they must have had absolutely no concept of what popular music of the era actually sounded like. It always made me laugh. (Pace the late great Stanley.)

    i mean BB did great for a jazz record, but stylistically it’s not exactly Led Zeppelin II, let alone the monkees.

    I suppose the message I take from this is that sometimes those who are supremely knowledgable about jazz are not the best placed to see it in a wider social context; you sacrifice breadth of knowledge with depth perhaps

    you know jazz people have been constructing narratives about what is - and isn’t - jazz for as long as the music has existed.

  16. #15

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    Maybe it's better to ask if a song has jazz rather than if it is jazz. Think of jazz as an adjective rather than a noun.

    As a noun, the question leaves us with a dichotomous question. It either is or isn't jazz.

    If a song can have jazz, then we are open to gradations. This allows us to question what about a piece is using elements of jazz.

    Remember the term "jazz" is over a hundred years old and encompasses a huge range of music. The broader the definition the less useful a term is when defining one particular object.

    Vivaldi and Mahler are both called classical composers in the broadest sense but they're born 200 years apart and their music reflects that.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yeah. About Bitches Brew and slightly off topic but also related point - the jazz critics like Stanley Crouch who accused Miles of ‘grovelling before commercial arenas’ and I always think that they must have had absolutely no concept of what popular music of the era actually sounded like. It always made me laugh. (Pace the late great Stanley.)
    Yes, Crouch was well off the mark with early fusion Miles, with the long pieces almost comparable to a raga or a suite, two or three electronic keyboard instruments and large ensembles with heavy textures, the use of unusual modes and chromaticism etc. these things do not spell radio-friendly unit-shifting music. Ok it did sell well - but then so did/does Kind of Blue...

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    Going around staying your opinion as fact and acting irritated when people disagree is obnoxious. The other thread was an open ended discussion, no one was asking for or expecting a definitive answer because there isn’t one.
    Funny but then he claims folks like us are the bitter ones or that we are offended when of course we didn't feel the need to create another thread. The guy should be a stand-up comedian; hey maybe he is because he doesn't come off as a musician.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Maybe it's better to ask if a song has jazz rather than if it is jazz. Think of jazz as an adjective rather than a noun.

    As a noun, the question leaves us with a dichotomous question. It either is or isn't jazz.

    If a song can have jazz, then we are open to gradations. This allows us to question what about a piece is using elements of jazz.

    Remember the term "jazz" is over a hundred years old and encompasses a huge range of music. The broader the definition the less useful a term is when defining one particular object.

    Vivaldi and Mahler are both called classical composers in the broadest sense but they're born 200 years apart and their music reflects that.
    i like that as a concept, but I think if you actually say it that way people will think it a bit odd haha

  20. #19

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    Yea, I have opinions of what jazz is and I've posted them for decades, but generally I see and hear jazz as a style of playing...

    I'm playing later with a great bluegrass player who's toured for years. He's working on learning to play in a jazz style. He's been at it for at least 10 years. He improving all the time.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Maybe it's better to ask if a song has jazz rather than if it is jazz. Think of jazz as an adjective rather than a noun.

    As a noun, the question leaves us with a dichotomous question. It either is or isn't jazz.

    If a song can have jazz, then we are open to gradations. This allows us to question what about a piece is using elements of jazz.

    Remember the term "jazz" is over a hundred years old and encompasses a huge range of music. The broader the definition the less useful a term is when defining one particular object.
    I like this way of looking at "jazz". Note that at a movie website the topic of What is Noir, is a frequent one. Instead of saying a film is noir or not, I just like to reference the various noir-elements I find in the film (e.g. lighting and use of shadows, noir themes like alienation, etc...). Of course there are folks that will still ask "but are those enough to call this film "noir"?".

    Oh well, can't please everyone, all of the time!

  22. #21

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  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    So, if I can summarise your position
    1) jazz is something I can concretely define by certain specific criteria
    2) however I refuse to pin down what these criteria are because I know you will examine them for flaws and debate me on them
    3) take me seriously

    Let me know if I’ve got that right
    No, I'm judging by your emotional reaction that you aren't going to be rational. And by the fact that jazz has existed for over 100 years by doing the same thing over and over.. but there's no definition lol. Yeah, sure. I'm perfectly happy to debate you on it though. Like I said. The flow chart works. If you want to go example by example for the hazier ones that would work better because I don't feel like typing out a comprehensive list of golden age jazz criteria if you're just going to be all irrational.

    If you want to use Bitches Brew as an example.. Do they flow through changes? No. Do they use golden age jazz characteristics? No --> Parent style. --> Fusion. How hard was that?
    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 06-27-2022 at 07:27 AM.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    Per you, your verifiable definition of jazz makes bluegrass into a type of jazz. Such a definition is worse than useless. Verified?
    They do almost the exact same thing as jazz musicians. They just use hillbilly instruments and rhythms. I doubt bluegrass predates jazz. It's possible bluegrass evolved in parallel to jazz but more than likely they heard what jazzers were doing and followed suit. Country and jazz also has crossover. This isn't that revolutionary of a notion.
    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 06-27-2022 at 08:00 AM.

  25. #24
    Stop and think for a second how stupid this is. You guys are triggered.. because I know what jazz is. Oooooookkkkkkkk

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    . And by the fact that jazz has existed for over 100 years by doing the same thing over and over.. .
    This is wrong, how can you think one second that the jazz of the early is "doing exactly the same thing" in the seventies or in the nineties and today ?

    If I listen to Miles Davis, this man was a bebopper, then a cooler, then a fusioner etc....He was not doing exactly the same thing, listen carefully to his records from the 50's to the 90's.

    And I'm not triggered at all... why would I be ? , we are on a forum exchanging point of view, that's all.