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The "ations."
Syncopation
Improvisation
Harmonization
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06-20-2022 03:05 PM
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It's not difficult. Listen to the music before 'jazz' and after it. The difference is obvious. Swing. Or, more specifically, as Beaumont says, syncopation, improvisation and harmonisation. And that style has evolved and mutated over the years.
But that's the obvious answer, of course. When someone asks 'what is jazz?' they're trying to define the indefinable. You may as well ask what is beauty or the taste of an orange.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I can still imagine the voices of those annoying kids swooning "oh, Beauty..." as they save the local village from the latest heinous "villain of the week", which they would never be able to do without the help of a horse.....
Theme tune was really good, although it was neither jazz nor rap...
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Thanks all for the opinions.
Originally Posted by JohnoL
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I dont think there was a lot of syncopation or improvisation involved in the Ella and Louis sessions. Mainly harmonization among these three. To my ears a good part of the "jazz" in these performances is in the phrasing. Which I believe technically is a combination of accentuation and timing.
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At a jazz guitar workshop I attended in Japan a couple years ago, the American guitarist running it began with that very question. Most answered “improvisation,” but having studied Middle Eastern and South Asian musics I knew it couldn’t be just that. When he said “history,” without missing a beat I added “and repertoire.”
Just heard from him recently, and he’s got a concert coming up with his trio doing the music and compositions of Charlie Parker.
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Originally Posted by teeps
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Guys, it's the technique of rhythmic improvisation of melodies (single note or more) through the changes/tune. That's the defining element. It's not rocket science. Although this technique doesn't exist to a large degree in other styles. Classical does it, but that's purely precomposed. Rock does it sometimes although the improv in rock is usually modal. There are changes happening in rock and other styles, I'm sure there are examples of metal guitarists flowing through changes, but on the whole this is what is unique to jazz and the defining element. It's the spark that makes you think, 'oh that's jazz.'
Swing was a major contributing vehicle to this technique, but wait, what about bossa nova? Sounds absolutely nothing like swing but it's still jazz because of what I explained.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Also, yes, classical often does things that are similar to jazz, but how about "precomposed" jazz? Some of the stuff, like Mancini's tunes used behind the Peter Gunn TV series (other than the overused theme), sound mostly precomposed and arranged for the band, but they sound like jazz. Are they?
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I agree because there is a lot of overlap of the contributing elements. Like you said you can have precomposed jazz pieces, it's still jazz. You can have different grooves or even tangents like modal where the harmonic requirement of jazz is overstepped. All still jazz because it overlaps predominantly. While I still think the harmonically fluid thing by 1 person or the band is the defining element and if you depart from that too drastically then it's not jazz anymore, like people calling funk jazz. And if you have the harmonically fluid melodies through the tune, even in different styles or grooves, then it's jazz.
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Real jazz is only played in front of a live audience.
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Thanks again. I am aware of this being "what is the meaning of life" kind of question with many possible answers. I do find the answers that come inspiring.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Jazz is a musical tradition, in which musicians play a tune together and improvise solos based on the tune. The tunes are often traditional, having been played by generations of jazz musicians.
Typically, the musicians play in combinations of reed and brass instruments with double bass and drums. Other instruments, piano and guitar especially, are also played. Jazz can also be played by a solo musician or sung.
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"The way that we play our rythm is the way that we speak, or the way that we hear."
Nice, @ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Bach is jazz :
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Terrific, and they're doing it in a church :-)
Incomparable musicians.
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It's a fuzzy concept, imho partially because no single instance of jazz music hold every trait, characteristic or quality that defines the totality of jazz - free or fluid? Sure, until you get into tightly arranged or performed big band jazz. Swing? Sure, until you get into ambient ECM territory. And so on. There is no denominator, only a common pool of traits, a subset of which a given piece or performance might adhere to.
Which is why I think Otterfan's definition is pretty accurate: If practitioners and audiences recognize music as belonging to their genre, it belongs to the genre. That decision isn't made arbitrarily but based on genre conventions, gatekeeprs, genre history, etc.
Originally Posted by Otterfan
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- old guard jazz musician who has played with everyone and knows the music inside out hears some hip young band and says 'that's not jazz!'
- someone who knows nothing about jazz says 'urgh, that's jazz!'
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Plus bossa nova absolutely swings! They just call it balanço
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One can always find an exception... that's why these sorts of discussions either end with everyone giving up, or someone pointlessly doubling down on their position however absurd it becomes.
TBF jazz is not unique in this slipperiness of definition
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Or a simpler model: Any band that is willing to take the financial hit of identifying as a jazz act is welcome to the term
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Jazz is a creative, improvisational music form that reached its zenith in the late '70s and is in its death throes today.* Historians will credit the influences of Rock Music as a major detrimental element to the genre as well as the "formulaic" approach to improvisation advocated by universities, conservatories, and "do it yourself" YouTube channels. Musical personality now takes a back seat to methodology.
Marinero
* Less than 1.4% of the American population listens to Jazz music.
Jazz Has Become The Least-Popular Genre In The US
https://news.jazzline.com › news › jazz-least-popular-m...
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I think it's players music, that's the problem. If it is a problem.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
In Philosophy 101, they teach beginning university students to reduce a philosophical concept/enigma, or ideology to its most elemental level to test its value. This is quite easy in this case. Music: vocal and instrumental were the earliest attempts by fully modern humans to communicate ideas, feelings, historical events, loss of life/love, success in battles, etc. in both a verbal(singing) and non-verbal (playing)way. Now fast forward 500,000 +/- years: to 2022 and ask a very simple question: what is the value of music if it fails to communicate to people, verbally and musically, the vagaries of the human condition. And, as the article I mentioned above, if it only communicates to 1.4% of the music audience, what is its real value if no one listnens? When one hears music that does communicate what it means to be human, it has a real effect on your life. Stardust, Over the Rainbow, My Funny Valentine, In a Sentimental Mood, Misty, Round Midnight, All the Things You Are, My Foolish Heart, etc.,etc. are an example of music that moves the human soul and deals with the human condition. And, it is this very thing that is lost today. Who's writing great songs today when their only perceived goal is to play fast and playing formulaic, Youtube licks identifiable by any good musician as bland cliche. As I have said in many posts, Jazz is dying because the culture that produces today's Jazz is also dead . . . although figuratively. The old cats may not have been formally educated but they jobbed for a living and they were sentient beings who not only absorbed the music but also used their own unique voice every time they played a familiar tune. Player's music? I think you're being kind.
Marinero
RIP Nick Gravenites
Today, 05:48 PM in The Players