Comletely OT, anyone trying to buy a car these days? HOLY S***!

[Stringswinger]

The Ponzi scheme of sustained deficit spending to run an economy can only be solved by A) inflation or B) bankruptcy.

I guess option A was the more attractive choice. Profligacy has consequences.

I hold a degree in Economics from NYU. But it doesn't take an economist to know that if you live beyond your means, you will one day. face problems.

[rlrhett]

The Ponzi scheme of sustained deficit spending to run an economy can only be solved by A) inflation or B) bankruptcy.

I guess option A was the more attractive choice. Profligacy has consequences.

I hold a degree in Economics from NYU. But it doesn't take an economist to know that if you live beyond your means, you will one day. face problems.

Perhaps, but the point is that is not what is happening now. Car prices, and indeed inflation in general, is also spiking in Europe and even Japan.

I know the saying is all politics are local, but that doesn’t mean local politics explain all things global.


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[Stringswinger]

Perhaps, but the point is that is not what is happening now. Car prices, and indeed inflation in general, is also spiking in Europe and even Japan.

I know the saying is all politics are local, but that doesn’t mean local politics explain all things global.


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No doubt supply chain problems due to Covid restrictions and a major war on European soil are the main culprit to high car prices and inflation at the moment, but the dollar is the world's main currency, the "lingua franca" of currencies if you will. Bad economic policy in the US has eroded faith in the dollar worldwide which is adding fuel to the inflation fire.

And partisan US politics has little to do with it. Both parties have spent like drunken sailors when in power. The Republicans don't walk their talk. Under Republicans, man exploits his fellow man, under Democrats it is the opposite.

[Stevebol]

My green 2009 Subaru Forester is the best car I ever had. It's annoying the way it get's knocked about in the wind. The post 2018 models are bigger/heavier and the Outbacks lower to the ground but it's not a time to be spending $ for me.

V6 Outbacks are hard to find. I might get a small boat after I move Yuma. Some extra power would be nice.

[Doctor Jeff]

No doubt supply chain problems due to Covid restrictions and a major war on European soil are the main culprit to high car prices and inflation at the moment, but the dollar is the world's main currency, the "lingua franca" of currencies if you will. Bad economic policy in the US has eroded faith in the dollar worldwide which is adding fuel to the inflation fire.

And partisan US politics has little to do with it. Both parties have spent like drunken sailors when in power. The Republicans don't walk their talk. Under Republicans, man exploits his fellow man, under Democrats it is the opposite.

Eroded faith in the dollar? Nope. The dollar is looking stronger and stronger, especially compared to the ruble. It is ALWAYS a bulwark against uncertainty.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/currency

Supply chain problems are multifactorial. COVID was the straw that broke the camel's back, but there are a lot of contributing factors. It wasn't just COVID restrictions, it was actual COVID hitting some suppliers in Asia especially very hard. There are a lot of dumbass (in retrospect) decisions by large corporations, like rental car companies selling off their inventory, airlines and other travel businesses promoting early retirement, etc., that affect productivity and supply.

And one reason for inflation is DEMAND--super high after years of holding back. Revenge buying...it's a thing.

[Stringswinger]

Eroded faith in the dollar? Nope. The dollar is looking stronger and stronger, especially compared to the ruble. It is ALWAYS a bulwark against uncertainty.

United States Dollar - 2022 Data - 1971-2021 Historical - 2023 Forecast - Quote

Supply chain problems are multifactorial. COVID was the straw that broke the camel's back, but there are a lot of contributing factors. It wasn't just COVID restrictions, it was actual COVID hitting some suppliers in Asia especially very hard. There are a lot of dumbass (in retrospect) decisions by large corporations, like rental car companies selling off their inventory, airlines and other travel businesses promoting early retirement, etc., that affect productivity and supply.

And one reason for inflation is DEMAND--super high after years of holding back. Revenge buying...it's a thing.

Sure enough after bottoming out against the Euro last year, the Dollar has come back. I guess the EU doesn't have it's fiscal act together either.

One thing is for certain, things change. Cars and guitars will be hard to sell at some point up the road during a bad economic cycle. That will be a good time to buy both. In a few years, I would like to buy a Toyota 4-runner, but if gasoline keeps getting more expensive, a Tesla may be in my future. For now, my 8 year old Opel Insignia will do.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Cars and guitars will be hard to sell at some point up the road during a bad economic cycle. That will be a good time to buy both. In a few years, I would like to buy a Toyota 4-runner, but if gasoline keeps getting more expensive, a Tesla may be in my future.

I'm way ahead of you! I just ordered a luxury convertible that gets 50 miles per growler...

[Litterick]

Anyone trying to buy a guitar these days? Cheap credit and limited stock make things expensive.

[rlrhett]

To be clear, I agree with you SS 100%. I can’t believe the world continues to buy our debt thereby propping our economy way up passed what our current balance of consumption/production would allow. Paul Volker (a former Fed Chairman) is famous for quipping, “unsustainable trends tend to end.” We will pay the piper some day. It’s just not what’s happening now.


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[RJVB]

Cars and guitars will be hard to sell at some point up the road during a bad economic cycle. That will be a good time to buy both. In a few years, I would like to buy a Toyota 4-runner, but if gasoline keeps getting more expensive, a Tesla may be in my future. For now, my 8 year old Opel Insignia will do.

We've been seeing that with (older) diesel cars here; hard to sell (even to dealers who'd still be selling them for almost "normal" prices). Things are going to be changing even more because apparently the EU has fasttracked their intended ban on new ICE vehicles ... to 2035. Guess what will happen with used car prices then... (I didn't know this yet when I wrote my previous reply).

[citizenk74]

My green 2009 Subaru Forester is the best car I ever had. It's annoying the way it get's knocked about in the wind. The post 2018 models are bigger/heavier and the Outbacks lower to the ground but it's not a time to be spending $ for me.

V6 Outbacks are hard to find. I might get a small boat after I move Yuma. Some extra power would be nice.

My most-missed car of all time was my buttercup-yellow Justy, "Buttercup." Three tiny cylinders, stick shift, great little cassette player, room enough for a Plexi Half-stack and a 600 watt powered board and speakers (I'm a very good packer) and a passenger; 45 mpg with me in it. Un-stoppable in any weather. Visible in any light; you could see people doing a double-take from half a mile away. When I say yellow, I mean Bright. We ran Subes for years, until they got too upscale. My wife had a red one, "Scarlet" which rolled over, having been cut off during a snow event. The passenger door needed buffed out. They don't sell them in the US any more. Nertz!

[Doctor Jeff]

Sure enough after bottoming out against the Euro last year, the Dollar has come back. I guess the EU doesn't have it's fiscal act together either.

One thing is for certain, things change. Cars and guitars will be hard to sell at some point up the road during a bad economic cycle. That will be a good time to buy both. In a few years, I would like to buy a Toyota 4-runner, but if gasoline keeps getting more expensive, a Tesla may be in my future. For now, my 8 year old Opel Insignia will do.

How the heck did you get an Opel Insignia? Never seen one.

When I lived in Germany my neighbor was an executive at the Kaiserslautern Opel plant. He drove a bright yellow sports coupe. (This was back in the 90's.) They had some interesting cars back then, and quality was considered much higher than GM America.

[Doctor Jeff]

To be clear, I agree with you SS 100%. I can’t believe the world continues to buy our debt thereby propping our economy way up passed what our current balance of consumption/production would allow. Paul Volker (a former Fed Chairman) is famous for quipping, “unsustainable trends tend to end.” We will pay the piper some day. It’s just not what’s happening now.


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Why shouldn't "they" buy our debt? It's worked out well so far...

That'd be like Chase Manhattan saying, "Sorry, Mr. Musk, we can't lend you $10 million."

Actually, A) foreign debt holdings have gone down percentage-wise over the last few years, B) what matters is not the size of the debt but can we service it, and C) we make more from foreign investments than it costs to service the debt.

This is not relevant to the prices of cars though. That is mainly a supply problem, not a money problem.

[Stevebol]

My most-missed car of all time was my buttercup-yellow Justy, "Buttercup." Three tiny cylinders, stick shift, great little cassette player, room enough for a Plexi Half-stack and a 600 watt powered board and speakers (I'm a very good packer) and a passenger; 45 mpg with me in it. Un-stoppable in any weather. Visible in any light; you could see people doing a double-take from half a mile away. When I say yellow, I mean Bright. We ran Subes for years, until they got too upscale. My wife had a red one, "Scarlet" which rolled over, having been cut off during a snow event. The passenger door needed buffed out. They don't sell them in the US any more. Nertz!

Justy. I had to Google. Interesting ride. 600 watts?!?
I'm a 'shaky' driver(far-sighted). I'd like a bigger car. Wind gusts in the desert scare me. My most missed car would be my 70' Skylark I had in California. 350. White, leather top and interior.
My first car wound up in a ditch in Chula Vista. A 70' Maverick. I just left it there. Then it was the Batmobile. A 65' Olds F-85. The wheel fell off when I was taking an off-ramp.
I fixed it and someone stole it. They can have it.
Someone smashed the door of my Skylark when I was in Japan. I sold that.

[joelf]

My '07 Hyundai Sonata gets me where I need to. But it has almost 228,000 miles (24,000 I put on myself since I purchased it in Dec. 2020) and won't run forever.

It's always the poor man's dilemma of only being able to afford a used car (I can maybe pony up $4,000 tops). You're basically buying a headache. Guess I'll drive this one to the bitter end...

[EllenGtrGrl]

I looked into getting a Mazda 3 hatchback, because my 7 year old Nissan Versa (bought new as a leftover in 2016) makes me nervous. I'm not one of those "buy a new car every 2 or 3 years" people - I try to get at least 100,000 miles out of mine (more than doable if you keep up with the service and maintenance a car needs), but ever since I started reading about 2 years ago, that Nissan CVTs are notorious for oftentimes calling it quits at only 70,000 miles, I started worrying about the CVT in mine. I already knew from personal experience that it pays to baby CVTs (they don't take abuse very well at all), but mine started getting sloppy around 60,000 miles last year, so I had the transmission fluid changed (not cheap to do so)_, and it helped a lot. Still, I'm not wild about the situation. I looked into getting a Mazda 3 Hatchback, due to Mazda being one of the few car makers, who hasn't jumped onto the CVT bandwagon for smaller cars (CVTs are cheaper to make than regular automatic transmissions), and just about had a heart attack at the prices. $27,000 for a new Mazda 3 Hatchback, with used ones going for over $20,000. Well, it looks like as much as I don't want to, I'm going to be hanging on to my 2015 Versa hatchback.

I'll just baby my Versa Hatchback, and follow the suggestion about changing the transmission fluid about every 4 oil changes, to help it last (but no guarantee, that the CVT will even make it to 150,000 miles), it'll get its next transmission fluid replacement 2 oil changes from now.

[RJVB]

the CVT bandwagon for smaller cars (CVTs are cheaper to make than regular automatic transmissions)

And probably (even) more expensive to maintain, possibly compensated a tiny bit by a hypothetical better gas mileage?

Not to sound pedantic, but if you want to save costs it pays to drive stick - even saves on brake pads (mine haven't been changed since I got the car in 2009). The only reason I see to get an automatic is if you're physically unable to manage the clutch, or spend 3h every day in traffic jams (but then you might want to rethink taking a car anyway, IMHO).

[Stringswinger]

And probably (even) more expensive to maintain, possibly compensated a tiny bit by a hypothetical better gas mileage?

Not to sound pedantic, but if you want to save costs it pays to drive stick - even saves on brake pads (mine haven't been changed since I got the car in 2009). The only reason I see to get an automatic is if you're physically unable to manage the clutch, or spend 3h every day in traffic jams (but then you might want to rethink taking a car anyway, IMHO).

My understanding is that today's automatics often get better gas mileage than the manuals. And some of the new materials in brake pads means they last a long time.

Here in San Francisco, the steep hills mean that clutches and automatic transmissions wear faster than in other places. A lot of people here in California spend more than 3 hours in traffic, but unlike Europe, public transport is not much of an option. We don't support public transit well, not do we execute it well when we do. Perhaps Elon Musk's high speed tunnels will be the right way for us?

[EllenGtrGrl]

And probably (even) more expensive to maintain, possibly compensated a tiny bit by a hypothetical better gas mileage?

Not to sound pedantic, but if you want to save costs it pays to drive stick - even saves on brake pads (mine haven't been changed since I got the car in 2009). The only reason I see to get an automatic is if you're physically unable to manage the clutch, or spend 3h every day in traffic jams (but then you might want to rethink taking a car anyway, IMHO).

I know how to use a clutch - on a motorcycle (my other set of wheels is an Indian FTR1200 - it becomes my main set of wheels when the weather gets warm), but I'm not so good with a car clutch (which has a much narrower engagement range). Also, I do occasionally deal with traffic jams on the 25 mile (40 km) commute to and from work, due to accidents, disabled cars, bad winter weather, and even traffic coming to a halt with cars merging in on I-894 west (part of my commute home), from I-94 south, and Hwy 36 north. The last time I drove stick (about 40 years ago [I had been riding motorcycles for about 8 years at the time]), I made my boyfriend at the time, cringe, because I was so hard on the clutch of his car. Nope, not for me.

[EllenGtrGrl]

My understanding is that today's automatics often get better gas mileage than the manuals. And some of the new materials in brake pads means they last a long time.

Here in San Francisco, the steep hills mean that clutches and automatic transmissions wear faster than in other places. A lot of people here in California spend more than 3 hours in traffic, but unlike Europe, public transport is not much of an option. We don't support public transit well, not do we execute it well when we do. Perhaps Elon Musk's high speed tunnels will be the right way for us?

+1

And as for public transit - well I live 25 miles (40 km) from where I work (and no, I will not move closer to work). I know people who commute further than I do. As it is, I live out in the suburbs, and besides the lack of public transportation, I really don't want to be a slave to a train or bus schedule. Comparatively few people ride the buses around here (and when I did it while I was attending the University of Wisconsin in Madison, WI it was a pain, and I made sure to get my motorcycle from home to Madison a.s.a.p, or I walked [mainly in the winter]).

There have been pushes in the past 15 years or so, to get commuter trains going in the area (the efforts have all been a bust). Oh, and the trolly downtown (which nobody rides on). The commuter train that would have had any relevance to me, would have traveled between Milwaukee, and Kenosha (almost at the state line). It would have been ridiculous. It was NOT high speed, and would have stopped at every stupid little 'burg between Milwaukee and the Racine area (where I worked - I experienced this phenomenon firsthand, when I took the Metra train from Kenosha to Chicago for a trade show a few years ago, ugh!!). I would have had to drive 15 miles (24 km) to the train station in Milwaukee (I live near the county line on the west side of the county), and walk who knows how far from the train station in the Racine area to my work place. I would have probably had to get up at 3 am, to make sure I made it on time to work. Not for me.

There is a commuter train of sorts between Chicago, and Milwaukee - the Amtrak Hiawatha. It's rather expensive at $23.50 one way. I think the only people who commute on it, are highly paid business people who work in one city, and want to live in the other one.

[RJVB]

a car clutch (which has a much narrower engagement range).

Not on my Skoda compared to the Guzzi I used to have. That bike almost gave me symmetric forearms (I'm right-handed) and it was a good thing lane-filtering was tolerated. The clutch on my car is like butter in comparison, and really allows me to dose engine braking with as much finesse as you'd expect to have in your non-dominant foot.

Modern automatics can have so many gears that they almost become like Variomatics, no wonder they can get better mileage - but I'm not complaining about my mileage at all.

[rlrhett]

And probably (even) more expensive to maintain, possibly compensated a tiny bit by a hypothetical better gas mileage?

Not to sound pedantic, but if you want to save costs it pays to drive stick - even saves on brake pads (mine haven't been changed since I got the car in 2009). The only reason I see to get an automatic is if you're physically unable to manage the clutch, or spend 3h every day in traffic jams (but then you might want to rethink taking a car anyway, IMHO).

Academic in the US. Most models are not even offered in manual transmissions. I remember years ago going with my seventy year old dad to buy a new pickup. He was furious when they told him it only came in automatic, they all had powered windows, and AC was standard equipment. He was convinced they were lying to him!


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[RJVB]

Most models are not even offered in manual transmissions.

Really? Not the impression one might get if you watch Jay Leno's shows

No idea what it's like to drive an American big-block car with a manual (torque/weight ratio must be comparable to what I had on the Guzzi, on which I shifted a lot less than in my car, esp. since they lowered the regular roads speed limit). But shifting is definitely part of the fun to me.

Sorry if my remark about rethinking taking the car came across wrong. I'd hate having the drive more than 20-30 min to and from work, esp. if that involves traffic jams. But I'd also hate having to put up with public transportation (of the bus/tram/metro type). Worked as a brainwash for me. The last couple of years of my last contract I had my little Parisian studio (1-room flat), 5 min. tops from a tram stop that took me to in front of my lab in another 5 min or so (with a 2-3 min train interval). To return home I walked, about 30 min in good tempo. And on Friday evening I'd take the bike about 100km away on the countryside where I now live. Wasn't the worse life, and I'd just gotten my license a few months before we started the move to the countryside. Before I was like many (native) Parisians, without license ... and if I'd stayed in the Netherlands I might still be doing everything by bicycle or train.

[Doctor Jeff]

I looked into getting a Mazda 3 hatchback, because my 7 year old Nissan Versa (bought new as a leftover in 2016) makes me nervous. I'm not one of those "buy a new car every 2 or 3 years" people - I try to get at least 100,000 miles out of mine (more than doable if you keep up with the service and maintenance a car needs), but ever since I started reading about 2 years ago, that Nissan CVTs are notorious for oftentimes calling it quits at only 70,000 miles, I started worrying about the CVT in mine. I already knew from personal experience that it pays to baby CVTs (they don't take abuse very well at all), but mine started getting sloppy around 60,000 miles last year, so I had to the transmission fluid changed (not cheap to do so)_, and it helped a lot. Still, I'm wild about the situation. I looked into getting a Mazda 3 Hatchback, due to Mazda being one of the few car makers, who hasn't jumped onto the CVT bandwagon for smaller cars (CVTs are cheaper to make than regular automatic transmissions), and just about had a heart attack at the prices. $27,000 for a new Mazda 3 Hatchback, with used ones going for over $20,000. Well, it looks like as much as I don't want to, I'm going to be hanging on to my 2015 Versa hatchback.

I'll just baby my Versa Hatchback, and per the suggestions about changing the transmission fluid about every 4 oil changes, to help it last (but no guarantee, that the CVT will even make it to 150,000 miles), it'll get it's next transmission fluid replacement 2 oil changes from now.

I have read that Nissan CVTs are prone to failure--https://www.carparts.com/blog/why-the-nissan-cvt-is-quite-possibly-the-worst-transmission-ever-built/.

I don't have any personal experience, in fact have never owned a Nissan. Though I learned to drive a stick with my Dad's '72 Datsun 510 wagon.

Mazda is a step up in every way. My son just got a CX30--cool car, and highly reliable. Yes it was hard to find. I got a tip on a lightly used model--former loaner with 3000 miles--for $23K in Denver, so we jumped on it.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

No idea what it's like to drive an American big-block car with a manual (torque/weight ratio must be comparable to what I had on the Guzzi, on which I shifted a lot less than in my car, esp. since they lowered the regular roads speed limit). But shifting is definitely part of the fun to me.

Just as Gibson neutered a lot of their guitars back then, emission controls and safety regulations neutered the original generation of American muscle cars in 1968. I got my license in 1963, so I had 5 years of driving before everything changed. A big block Chevy, Ford, or Mopar with a Hurst shifter on a heavy duty 4 speed box was exciting to all your senses. We loved the way they looked. The sound of a well tuned, normally aspirated engine set up for maximum airflow from intake to exhaust tip was (and still is, if you ever get the chance to try one) as sweet as that of a B3 full on through the biggest Leslie. Acceleration with a numerically high differential (4.11 to 1 was the minimum for serious acceleration in a 2+ ton car) slammed you back into your seat. Crankcase ventilation was direct to the environment, so you inhaled a heady mix of raw gasoline (because they all ran rich), exhaust gases, hot clutch and brake linings, and coolant blowing from the overflow tube.

When it came time to turn or stop, a lot of the joy disappeared. They were crude devices with solid rear axles, high unsprung weight, shocks and springs made of pudding, tiny drum brakes, and an inbred intent to break the laws of physics. They failed on all counts. After a series of truly ratty carcasses that I managed to get running (MG-TD, XK120, Bridgestone 90 motorcycle and then a Yamaha YDT1). I traded the Yammie (along with my helmet and jacket) for a ratty '58 XK150 coupe whose driver side door didn't open any more. And I traded that plus $100 for a two tone (blue and rust) '57 Porsche 356 coupe. I bought my first new car (a Mini Cooper 1275S) in 1967. I thought I wanted a "325 hp" 327 (5.3 liter) Chevelle coupe with a close ratio 4 speed until I drove it - it was closer to a truck than a sports car on the road.

Back then, the American car industry did not rate horsepower the way the rest of the world did. We measured it on an engine dynamometer, at the flywheel, with no engine ancillaries at all - no generator or alternator, no water pump, no exhaust muffling, a tuned exhaust header built for use on the dyno, and nothing else to diminish the measurement. So almost all of those big American engines were rated far in excess of the power they actually delivered to the drive wheels. In fact, the exact same engine with the exact same camshaft, induction, exhaust, etc was sold in different cars as having different power ratings. Chevy rated the same 5.3 L engine at anywhere from 200 hp to 350 hp, depending on the car in which it was delivered - the "325 hp" engine in that Chevelle was identical to the "350 hp" version in the Corvette and the "275 hp" version in the Impala - they even had the same factory code - L30. It was a lot like the way amplifiers are rated!

Almost any 5L American car today is a faster, better vehicle than any of those cherished relics. In fact, a decent driver in my 2015 Scion FR-S (now a Toyota FT86) will lap any race course with less than a 1/2 mile straight faster than a 1967 SS396, Hemi 'Cuda, or 427 Ford production car. Even today, that Guzzi's power to weight ratio is far higher than most of our hottest street cars.

Give Wes a Kay or a Harmony and he'd still sound like Wes. Put Dan Gurney or Stirling Moss behind the wheel of a '66 Plymouth Hemi and they'd set new track records. But you really had to know both the best and worst of those cars to make them perform as well as they could. Fortunately, the normal stuff we can now get to drive (and to play) around the world is so much better than the equivalent products back then that the only people who think those products were so great have never driven (or played) one.