The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've come to the conclusion that I don't have the innate ability to improvise well. I've been trying to learn Jazz off and at the various times over the past 20 years but haven't made satisfying progress.

    My ear has improved and I have successfully transcribed multiple Jazz solos. I feel like I'm ok composing solos but when I have to improvise on the fly it never quite comes together the way I'd like with timing issues and phrase lengths not fitting nicely into the form.

    At this point, I think I'm missing something to be successful at this. One thing that has always puzzled me is when people say just play what you hear in your head. But I don't hear any melody naturally in my imagination.

    Maybe that's a fundamental problem. Wondering if I'm alone here.

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  3. #2

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    I wouldn't feel bad.

    I think the innate ability to improvise jazz well is extremely rare. Maybe under 100 folks in music history.

    I've said again and again, I don't believe in a talent for playing jazz. There's too many individual skills. Folks might have an aptitude in 2 or 3 of them, and that puts them ahead of the pack quickly, but much of what we call "talent" is really just the ability to enjoy and actually crave the hard work it takes to get good at something.

    I don't actually think I've ever talked to a "talented" person who has attributed their ability to talent.

    Talent or lack thereof-practice-cartoon-jpg

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I wouldn't feel bad.

    I think the innate ability to improvise jazz well is extremely rare. Maybe under 100 folks in music history.

    I've said again and again, I don't believe in a talent for playing jazz. There's too many individual skills. Folks might have an aptitude in 2 or 3 of them, and that puts them ahead of the pack quickly, but much of what we call "talent" is really just the ability to enjoy and actually crave the hard work it takes to get good at something.

    I don't actually think I've ever talked to a "talented" person who has attributed their ability to talent.

    Talent or lack thereof-practice-cartoon-jpg
    Yeah, I feel important sub skills are technique, time feel, and ear.

    I'm pretty weak in the first 2.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I wouldn't feel bad.
    <
    snip>
    much of what we call "talent" is really just the ability to enjoy and actually crave the hard work it takes to get good at something.
    thats it exactly ....
    when you love the process of playing
    its not work ....
    its fun

    and the more you do it
    the better you get at it
    how could it be otherwise ?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    Yeah, I feel important sub skills are technique, time feel, and ear.

    I'm pretty weak in the first 2.
    Man, do I have some good news for you. You can actually improve those with….. practice!!

    Sounds like you’ve hit a plateau, have you thought about working with a teacher?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Man, do I have some good news for you. You can actually improve those with….. practice!!

    Sounds like you’ve hit a plateau, have you thought about working with a teacher?
    Yes, I've thought about it and had a teacher a long time ago when I was first starting out but I haven't followed through. I may look into it again. Between work and kids I've mostly felt that I wouldn't have the time to put in enough work with weekly lessons. I have been trying to be a bit more disciplined with practice, lately, so maybe I'll give it go.

  8. #7

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    Hi, C,
    Start a band. Learn 3 sets of songs(melody/changes). Play 5-6 nights a week. You'll be improvising naturally after a couple of months if not sooner. How many times can a person play a song the same way every night???? It's the ear approach and all the good players of the past learned this way. All this formulaic playing is why most players are so boring and predictable today. You can learn the theory stuff later. You may not be the next Charlie Parker, but you'll develop your own improvisational style. Use your ears. It's what music is about.
    Marinero

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, C,
    Start a band. Learn 3 sets of songs(melody/changes). Play 5-6 nights a week. You'll be improvising naturally after a couple of months if not sooner. How many times can a person play a song the same way every night???? It's the ear approach and all the good players of the past learned this way. All this formulaic playing is why most players are so boring and predictable today. You can learn the theory stuff later. You may not be the next Charlie Parker, but you'll develop your own improvisational style. Use your ears. It's what music is about.
    Marinero
    Necessity is the mother of invention!

  10. #9

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    Some who study such things separate music 'intelligence' into 3 categories: Ability to reproduce (play what you hear), ability to sight read, and ability to improvise. Based on my limited experience I don't think that's far off. Jazz is harder because it's a concurrent intellectual / musical activity. Jazz guitar is harder still because playing guitar is hard. But I have always found, in all types of music, some improvisers are just more melodic, inventive, and interesting than others. I did play with a keyboard player for several years that was a brilliant player but wasn't innately good at creation. He thought ahead, listened to others, and worked hard. Sounded great.He always felt I was cheating when I could just turn my brain off and blast away on saxophone.

    I do think that there is an innate ability to improvise just like there's an innate ability to articulate language well. But like language, the more you read and the more you listen, the better you get.

  11. #10

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    I realise you aren’t really asking advice…

    I would say I often feel I hit a wall or feel a bit demotivated or frustrated sometimes.

  12. #11

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    What I would say in the way of advice is; pick your battles and do things that are measurable or at least tangible.

    If you can’t hear your own music in your head, work on hearing other peoples music, licks and phrases. Eventually it your own stuff will come (or at least you forget where you got the stuff you play haha.) But you need to start somewhere with it.

  13. #12

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    Age is probably a component, too. When I was in middle school through college I played in a lot of rock and funk oriented bands that suppose you could call jam bands. Lots of improv, but certainly not playing changes. This gave me some facility and familiarity with the instrument, and the ability to “hear in the moment” roughly what I wanted to play. Those aspects have helped me tremendously in some ways now that I’m focused on jazz, but also harmed me in others. Tons of bad habits and ingrained muscle memory to work around. I’ve had to completely retool my understanding of music—because jazz improv is so much more than the one key modal blues-based improv wankery that I grew up playing—but also the instrument itself. It’s only in the past couple of years that I feel like I’m starting to move from playing fake jazz to sort of playing real jazz. I think Mr. Beaumont posted a long time ago about how it took him around 10 years of focused study to start to feel like he was playing jazz. For me, I’d say that sounds about it right. I just try to enjoy the process and be happy with little improvements here and there. A good teacher helps immensely with focus.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I realise you aren’t really asking advice…

    I would say I often feel I hit a wall or feel a bit demotivated or frustrated sometimes.
    Advice is always welcome!

  15. #14

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    I've been teaching guitar for..20 years now. When I started, I thought that the difference of the "talent" - the speed what people can progress - is about 10x.
    Nowadays I'm pretty sure its 100x.
    I've seen maybe 3 super-talented students with jackpotish draw of abilities. Sadly.. what was missing was patience and peristance.

  16. #15

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    O.K. for the record . . . not everyone can play Jazz, Classical, Funk, Country, etc. There is a feel for the music that I believe is both innate and environmental in re: lifetime exposure(omnipresent/subliminal) to a genre. But, everyone can play all music to some degree. The frustration comes when you love something but can't possess it . . . much like the cute blonde next door that never looked in your direction when you left the house. So, when I was leading horn bands in the past, at times, I frequently used Classical guys in the horn section who could read very well since all our shows were charted and we had some tight, heavily syncopated horn parts. And, since my first trumpet and sax(me) did all the improvisations, it really didn't matter. But, when I expanded our horn section, I hired a bone player who was enrolled at a local conservatory who was a farm boy from Iowa who had great chops, great reading skills, and loved the music. However, it was impossible for him to improvise. I used to write simple Funk licks for him to practice/play but they always sounded stiff-- however well-played but he just didn't have the feel. However, he was a positive force in the horn section and never was late for a practice or gig and stayed until the end when gigs disappeared for 8-10 piece bands. So, I hate to be a messenger of fate but playing Jazz is no different than the ability to hit a 90 plus mile an hour fastball--some can do it, most can't.
    Marinero

  17. #16

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    It seems to me that in the guitar forums that I read, whenever the word "talent" is used, it seems that the word "skill" would be much more applicable. In other words, those two terms seem to be used interchangeably, when in fact, they are quite different. It is almost a slap in the face to completely disregard all the behind the scenes hours a person put in to achieve a high level of skill playing guitar.

    This isn't to deny that people can have varying degrees of talent (i.e. natural ability) in some facets involved in playing guitar, but as an earlier poster pointed out, for most folks some aspects of playing guitar come easier than others and what these aspects are, varies from person to person. Given that, it would be very difficult to measure "talent", but I do believe that the level of desire a person has to play can be easily seen in their day to day commitment, and that is what translates into ability.

    Tony
    Last edited by tbeltrans; 02-12-2022 at 11:10 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I've come to the conclusion that I don't have the innate ability to improvise well. I've been trying to learn Jazz off and at the various times over the past 20 years but haven't made satisfying progress.

    My ear has improved and I have successfully transcribed multiple Jazz solos. I feel like I'm ok composing solos but when I have to improvise on the fly it never quite comes together the way I'd like with timing issues and phrase lengths not fitting nicely into the form.

    At this point, I think I'm missing something to be successful at this. One thing that has always puzzled me is when people say just play what you hear in your head. But I don't hear any melody naturally in my imagination.

    Maybe that's a fundamental problem. Wondering if I'm alone here.
    I think you have to figure out what you really enjoy in music. Usually that part is what you have some talent in.

    Then you can lean into that skill and focus on developing it. For example John Scofield says himself that he doesn't really enjoy composing, he just does it because he has to. And you can tell it's not his strength, compared to his godly improv and phrasing skills.

    If you can highlight your strengths it can make up for weaknesses. Of course doing work on weakness is still necessary to be more complete, but in terms of enjoying what you're doing its important to lean to your strengths.

    If you like composing then channel some more time into that. After all you can just have a friend improvise on it!! Or even just write a solo. It's all valid, just depends what you enjoy!

  19. #18

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    I do have a question that might hit a nerve or give some hope.
    Have you ever played a solo that made yourself happy?
    If not, then yeah - probably best to not bother with all-out impo imho. Then composing them, writing down and learning would be a way to go. And not a bad way if you dig the process.
    If yes, then yeah - figure out what went right that time. And do us all a favor and enlighten us
    I've been in similar trouble for years

  20. #19

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    The bad news is there really is no more steady work for most musicians. The good news is you can become a professional self promoter of yourself for free on way too many outlets!

    So the saying was those who can gig, those who can’t teach!

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Start a band. Learn 3 sets of songs(melody/changes). Play 5-6 nights a week.
    What I wouldn’t give to live in a world where this was still a possibility.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    Yes, I've thought about it and had a teacher a long time ago when I was first starting out but I haven't followed through. I may look into it again. Between work and kids I've mostly felt that I wouldn't have the time to put in enough work with weekly lessons. I have been trying to be a bit more disciplined with practice, lately, so maybe I'll give it go.
    You make a great point, here. Around eight years ago, I sought out a Jazz Teacher. I was probably a little more busy back then. I asked could I meet bi-weekly instead of weekly because of my limited free time. He said he could not do it that way so I quit after two lessons, thanked him and told him to keep the money from the other two lessons in the month.

    He was very close by, and around that same age that I was at the time. It probably could have been a great relationship.

    I have not read through the thread, so I hope I did not derail it.

  23. #22

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    I don't believe that you can't learn jazz improv. What level are you at? Can you not master a basic jazz blues? Play suitable lines over a jazz blues backing track at 100 or 110bpm?

    This premise below is 100% false. Being musical is the end goal, and if you can take a shortcut there, that's great, but if you're not there, there's no reason you can't learn the 'mechanics' of improv. It's assigning rhythm to a set of notes to make motifs, or ideas, and then repeating or sequencing that. It isn't an insurmountable obstacle. I bet you could do it if you had the right practice program or you had a teacher help you with it. I used to go every other week. It works well.

    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    At this point, I think I'm missing something to be successful at this. One thing that has always puzzled me is when people say just play what you hear in your head. But I don't hear any melody naturally in my imagination.

    Maybe that's a fundamental problem. Wondering if I'm alone here.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishguitar
    I think you have to figure out what you really enjoy in music. Usually that part is what you have some talent in.

    Then you can lean into that skill and focus on developing it. For example John Scofield says himself that he doesn't really enjoy composing, he just does it because he has to. And you can tell it's not his strength, compared to his godly improv and phrasing skills.

    If you can highlight your strengths it can make up for weaknesses. Of course doing work on weakness is still necessary to be more complete, but in terms of enjoying what you're doing its important to lean to your strengths.

    If you like composing then channel some more time into that. After all you can just have a friend improvise on it!! Or even just write a solo. It's all valid, just depends what you enjoy!
    Scos written some bangers so I reckon he’s too hard on himself…

  25. #24

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    Another story: When I was finishing my undergraduate studies(early 70's), many of my friends were Music majors. And, there was a sad epiphany that many experienced at their senior recital when they, usually, realized that they would not have a life in Music unless they became a teacher. Major symphony gigs were very limited and only the cream of the crop even got an audition. Local symphonies paid very little and usually were filled by part-timers and students. Jazzers had little or no chance to hook up with a working Big Band since those gigs were dominated by working pros but there were still many clubs with live music if you could get a group together and that was a pathway for only the very best musicians. So, most of the people I knew usually retooled and pursued other careers soon after graduation.
    So, what made the difference? Talent. The guys I knew and played with during those days, who stayed in music as a career, were playing at a professional level in their late teens/early twenties. They didn't need another 10,000 hours to hone their chops. They were already sharp. They had arrived. And, this is the point that "musicians" must understand . . . how much time are you willing to devote to attain skills that may be beyond your abilities to realize your dream? It's one thing to pursue music as a hobby, but if you want to work(Rock/Country musicians excluded), you have to have talent. Why is this simple concept so difficult for some to understand? Did I ever tell you the story about the one-arm carpenter?
    Marinero


  26. #25

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    I have met musicians along the way who played at a high level with not much effort and other musicians who put in massive hours of practice and frankly, still sucked.

    I believe there is a music gene and it comes in varying degrees. Some get a strong variant (Wes Montgomery for example), some get a weaker variant and some get none at all.

    I also believe that music is a calling. Sadly. some get the calling, but lack the gene. Perhaps even more sad is when those who have a strong music gene lack the calling and rarely play.

    Bottom line, you have to play the hand you are dealt in life.