Talent or lack thereof

[whiskey02]

Quote from Pat Metheny's 1996 Berklee commencement speech:

But in the process of putting this speech together, it has forced me to really examine a few details about what has been particularly significant for me, as an individual, in this life that I have been having as a musician. And the results of this self-examination process getting ready for this speech, were interesting to me. Because for as much as I can stand here and claim to be a successful player, with Grammy awards and winning polls and now honorary degrees and all that stuff; one very fundamental thing has not changed, and I realized that it will never change, and that is this—that the main thing in my life, even as I stand here right now, right this second, is that I really need to go home and practice.

[citizenk74]

Quote from Pat Metheny's 1996 Berklee commencement speech:

But in the process of putting this speech together, it has forced me to really examine a few details about what has been particularly significant for me, as an individual, in this life that I have been having as a musician. And the results of this self-examination process getting ready for this speech, were interesting to me. Because for as much as I can stand here and claim to be a successful player, with Grammy awards and winning polls and now honorary degrees and all that stuff; one very fundamental thing has not changed, and I realized that it will never change, and that is this—that the main thing in my life, even as I stand here right now, right this second, is that I really need to go home and practice.

Absolutely this. I enjoy gigging, a great deal, but practice is my happy place. The gigs merely justify the time spent practicing, and practicing, and practicing. And like the man said "I think I'm making progress!"

[whiskey02]

To OP:

How have you practiced?
What worked for you?
What didn't work for you?
Have you changed how and what you practice when something did not work for you?
Have you changed how and what you practice when something did work for you? Why?
Have you worked with a teacher?
Does that teacher present material that causes you to improve when you work it?
Have you really worked it?
Have you tried different teachers?
Do you have a clear, specific, reasonably attainable goal for yourself; I want to play standards well with a group of my friends, I want to play swing, bebop, new age, ambient and Gypsy jazz?
Have you looked at your answer to above question and then edited it down to the one style/genre that is most important to you?
Are you overwhelming yourself to too much theory or things that are far beyond your current skill level?
Not your current cognitive ability, but specifically your current playing ability?
Do you simplify practice material down to its most rudimentary core so that you can grasp it more easily and shed that shit until you have it before moving on"
Do you actively listen to jazz that inspires you to want to learn and improve?
Are you trying to cop every player, every style, 20 lessons from youtube a day? Don't do that.
You must have something cool going for you because you have recognized something that you are not satisfied with and you are reaching out for help.
You headed on the right track and in the right direction.
Good on you.

[Christian Miller]

I try not to be a complete dick when I don’t get to play guitar for a day. It’s hard but I need to do this to maintain familial relationships. But it’s a strain. That’s where it’s at.

Make of that what you will. I don’t think everyone feels this way? The fact I do makes me think I am stuck with this ludicrous instrument whether or not I like it or am any good at it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Ironic that people often fall in love with activities in which they can never achieve their goals.

I think, for many of us, the goal becomes "a little better than yesterday".

[Beaubs]

O.K. for the record . . . not everyone can play Jazz, Classical, Funk, Country, etc. There is a feel for the music that I believe is both innate and environmental in re: lifetime exposure(omnipresent/subliminal) to a genre. But, everyone can play all music to some degree. The frustration comes when you love something but can't possess it . . . much like the cute blonde next door that never looked in your direction when you left the house. So, when I was leading horn bands in the past, at times, I frequently used Classical guys in the horn section who could read very well since all our shows were charted and we had some tight, heavily syncopated horn parts. And, since my first trumpet and sax(me) did all the improvisations, it really didn't matter. But, when I expanded our horn section, I hired a bone player who was enrolled at a local conservatory who was a farm boy from Iowa who had great chops, great reading skills, and loved the music. However, it was impossible for him to improvise. I used to write simple Funk licks for him to practice/play but they always sounded stiff-- however well-played but he just didn't have the feel. However, he was a positive force in the horn section and never was late for a practice or gig and stayed until the end when gigs disappeared for 8-10 piece bands. So, I hate to be a messenger of fate but playing Jazz is no different than the ability to hit a 90 plus mile an hour fastball--some can do it, most can't.
Marinero

I cannot hit a 90 mph fastball. I can hit a 65 mph fastball (or I could 40 years ago) - I am assuming I could hit and pitch because I started playing sports at a young age and I went to thousands of practices. I was a good athlete - good, not great.

I love jazz, I love listening to it in my car, my house, and live. I play in a 6 piece group that gets together infrequently - they are all semi professional musicians or teachers. I play a bit of rhythm, and take a lead on occasion. At best, I am a marginal jazz guitarist - I simply hate to practice. Through some kind of miracle I have improved over the years and apparently I am good enough that they keep asking me back. I am very happy that they do. Will I continue to get better? Probably yes. Will I become a jazz virtuoso? Nope. I will however keep showing up to play jazz at home and with the group. It is my favorite thing to do.

[emanresu]

How many of you devote significant amount of time doing what you're good with the instrument vs what you're bad at?

edit: not me.. sadly. It feels like I'm always half-way there.

[AllanAllen]

I sound awful a whole lot of the time.

Every once in a while I’ll play some straight blues and be pleased. Sometimes I’ll play along to Elvis or Gene Vincent and think I’m fantastic.

[Vladan]

IMO, talent is perceived apparent ease of realising potential into ability to demonstrate skill at level above expected average.

[Gabor]

Me too... but...

in the past 5 years I concluded this is because mainly the lack of practice. I understood, the order is not hearing in my head (talent) and practice to how to play it, instead the opposite. It is practice, then I will hear in my head (as a memory), and put those pieces together spontenausly (meaning: improvise).

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm a fly fisherman. I think I might flatter myself by saying I'm of average ability as a fisherman.

There are plenty of fisherman who catch more fish.

But, I enjoy the fish I catch (catch and release, that is).

[wintermoon]

I'm a fly fisherman. I think I might flatter myself by saying I'm of average ability as a fisherman.

There are plenty of fisherman who catch more fish.

But, I enjoy the fish I catch (catch and release, that is).

Ah, had been doing it since I was a kid but zero the last 10 yrs since weekly gigs really ramped up.
Really miss it....

[kris]

I always say this - being a jazz musician is hard work.
It is not only playing but also the ability to organize concerts, jams, recordings etc.
Often times, organizational talent is really very important.

[grahambop]

I don’t think I have anything I would call ‘talent’. No-one in my family was musical. The only music I heard was pop tunes on the radio until I was about 10, when my dad was given a cheap record player and a couple of classical LPs which I enjoyed listening to. Seeing Julian Bream on the telly made me start playing the guitar with classical guitar lessons at age 12. Then as a teenager I got an electric guitar and taught myself rock and blues guitar from records. Then at age 20 I got into jazz and started the long process of learning jazz from records.

Apart from the classical lessons, all I ever did was slog away using nothing but my ears to work out what to do, where I was going wrong, how to do it better, how to get a better tone on the guitar, etc. I practised a lot for a few years initially, but after that I only did about half an hour or so a day, due to work, family, etc.

Eventually I got to a point where I could comp ok and play a decent solo on most standard tunes. Obviously not pro level, but pretty good for an amateur.

So I’m not sure I really buy the ‘talent’ thing, if you just want to be a good amateur player. Developing your ears is the best thing you can do, if your time is limited (in my opinion). Also recording yourself and being brutally honest about the results is a good way to kick yourself up the ass. (I got a nasty shock when I first did this and heard how bad my time was).

I know someone who is a professional cellist and a BBC Young musician of the year winner. Now I suspect she has ‘talent’. She already sounded like a pro when she was about 16. But I think she started the cello around the age of 6, and she told me she used to practise a couple of hours before going to school, then several hours again when she got home. So there is a massive amount of dedicated, hard work involved even for someone like that. I know I could never do that, I’m basically too lazy!

[kris]

For me it is very simple/when we mean musicians/:
A measure of talent is progress in playing an instrument.
A talented person achieves what they want to achieve in a shorter time.
A less talented person may have a problem with this and will have to spend more time doing the same - he is always behind.
Ease in achieving the goal.
While in a music school, this can be easily observed.

[AllanAllen]

For me it is very simple/when we mean musicians/:
A measure of talent is progress in playing an instrument.
A talented person achieves what they want to achieve in a shorter time.
A less talented person may have a problem with this and will have to spend more time doing the same - he is always behind.
Ease in achieving the goal.
While in a music school, this can be easily observed.

Can it though? Even in music school you aren't together 24 hours a day. The 'talented' student leaves class, goes to his room and practices all weekend while the 'untalented' ones drink beers and watch football. Or even worse, the untalented one comes here for confirmation that they weren't born with some magical gene and they get it.

[mr. beaumont]

I always say this - being a jazz musician is hard work.
It is not only playing but also the ability to organize concerts, jams, recordings etc.
Often times, organizational talent is really very important.

Boy, that's really true.

Being a good player is just one part of it all.

[kris]

Can it though? Even in music school you aren't together 24 hours a day. The 'talented' student leaves class, goes to his room and practices all weekend while the 'untalented' ones drink beers and watch football. Or even worse, the untalented one comes here for confirmation that they weren't born with some magical gene and they get it.

The problem is that the talented ones often go for a beer more often than the less talented ones.
It is often the case that a talented person has more time, because everything is easy for him.
Someone with brilliant hearing does not need to practice their hearing for hours.
He simply has excellent hearing from birth.

[Stringswinger]

The problem is that the talented ones often go for a beer more often than the less talented ones.
It is often the case that a talented person has more time, because everything is easy for him.
Someone with brilliant hearing does not need to practice their hearing for hours.
He simply has excellent hearing from birth.

And some people cannot develop their ears no matter how hard they try......

[Marinero]

I try not to be a complete dick when I don’t get to play guitar for a day. It’s hard but I need to do this to maintain familial relationships. But it’s a strain. That’s where it’s at.

Make of that what you will. I don’t think everyone feels this way? The fact I do makes me think I am stuck with this ludicrous instrument whether or not I like it or am any good at it.

Hi, C,
One of my old mentors told me never pass a day without playing . . . if even for 15 minutes. That's very hard to do in real life especially with work and a family. I'm very disciplined about playing every day(retired) but there are times that I have other obligations and can't find the time. And, there are times when I hit minor "burnouts" and get stale and need to put the instrument down for a couple of days to recoup. Practice is both mental and physical and if the mental is missing you're just playing notes. Many years ago(as a lone wolf), I could practice four hours a day plus gig at night on sax. I couldn't do that now on guitar. So, I must compromise. Here's a tip if you want to really know how much you're playing: keep a log in a composition book that details actual hours played every day and what you practiced/accomplished. If your goal was, say, 60 hours a month, you'll see exactly what you played and can make adjustments, if possible, to your schedule. I aim for 2 hours a day but in reality, only get 45-55 hours when factoring time missed. Reality is an ugly bedfellow and will always get in the way for most of us. Be thankful you have the gift of passion in your life.
Marinero

[John A.]

My experience and observation is that you can't learn to play jazz without actually playing jazz with other live human beings to at least some extent. It's an inherently ensemble-based and social art form. So if all you're doing is sitting by yourself with books and other forms of canned instruction, you're going to get stuck. However, if you put yourself in a room with other people (a teacher, a friend or two also trying to learn, a band (if you can find one), a jam session, etc.), the activity forces you to get out of your own head, put whatever skills you have to use, and gives you the kind of feedback you need in order to grow. That includes the extent to which you are "pre-hearing"/audiating what you play. Playing with others is a fundamentally different experience from playing by yourself, and it brings this facet of playing out (at least in my experience) much more than solitary playing does. Forget the question of "talent," and forget about whether you're good enough yet to play. Just play with other people and use that experience to grow.

[Victor Saumarez]

What you describe happens to more us than we care to admit. What I would add is that transcribing is really about stealing ideas. It's not really about something rubbing off on you, although there is that. Working those ideas (licks, vocab, phrases etc) into your playing is the next step. They have to be 'worked in' relentlessly so just happen as opposed to being thought about. That means playing them over and over. Nothing wrong with composing solos. I've heard great players playing similar solos over the same tune. However, that is not the goal and isn't practical. It will, however, get you over a hump and help the 'working in' process. The pressure from getting out there and playing is the best method for honing skills.

[kris]

My experience and observation is that you can't learn to play jazz without actually playing jazz with other live human beings to at least some extent. It's an inherently ensemble-based and social art form. So if all you're doing is sitting by yourself with books and other forms of canned instruction, you're going to get stuck. However, if you put yourself in a room with other people (a teacher, a friend or two also trying to learn, a band (if you can find one), a jam session, etc.), the activity forces you to get out of your own head, put whatever skills you have to use, and gives you the kind of feedback you need in order to grow. That includes the extent to which you are "pre-hearing"/audiating what you play. Playing with others is a fundamentally different experience from playing by yourself, and it brings this facet of playing out (at least in my experience) much more than solitary playing does. Forget the question of "talent," and forget about whether you're good enough yet to play. Just play with other people and use that experience to grow.

It would be fun ... but I think all the time that I play bad and I would like to play it better.
For example, when I was standing on the stage next to John Scofield, I wanted to get off the stage as quickly as possible and just listen to what the master would play...This happened in 1986.

[John A.]

It would be fun ... but I think all the time that I play bad and I would like to play it better.
For example, when I was standing on the stage next to John Scofield, I wanted to get off the stage as quickly as possible and just listen to what the master would play...This happened in 1986.

I'm not saying the one shouldn't practice and study, nor am I saying that one should just go out and play with Sco (though I'd gladly take a shot at it). I'm saying that playing with other people is one of the the keys to making progress, and I think that would help the OP break out of the rut he describes himself as being in.

[kris]

I'm not saying the one shouldn't practice and study, nor am I saying that one should just go out and play with Sco (though I'd gladly take a shot at it). I'm saying that playing with other people is one of the the keys to making progress, and I think that would help the OP break out of the rut he describes himself as being in.

In 1986 I was young and didn't know much ...Scof he was on top then and I think he's still on top.
Later I played in several bands and it was an excellent jazz school.Thanks to Scofield, I started to take learning jazz very seriously.