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I believe the former is more sad, personally. If you have the music gene and not the calling, there are plenty of others with both. For someone who has a great desire to be a musician, but lacks the tools, that's a source of personal frustration.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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02-13-2022 12:43 PM
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Yet millions of people love playing all sports and do so their entire lives for pleasure, despite skill levels that range from only being able to hit a 60 mph fastball all the way down to frequently striking out at wiffleball. So there’s a huge area of opportunity for aspiring jazz musicians to enjoy themselves and achieve their own best performance, regardless of how sophisticated that may (or may not) be. Originally Posted by Marinero
I think most who have the drive can reach a level at which they enjoy playing, and that’s wonderful. I doubt that any of us loves 100% of what he or she plays. One of my oldest friends plays harp like Toots - yet he’s never liked a single note he played and apologizes frequently for not being perfect. I’d smack him, but we all need his chops
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It’s not a gene you plonkers it’s a flipping phenotype.
unlrss you think it’s possible to isolate the bit of DNA that says ‘you will be a great musician and have all the gigs’ or something lol.
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it’s easier to believe that than accept they could be better if they tried harder. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Then again, it may be a digital signature. Having it enables you to gig a bit. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Today I learned a new word. Is plonkers singular and just happens to end in “s”, or is it the kind of thing where we use the plural form no matter how many plonkers we’re talking to? (the royal plonkers, if you will) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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If you want to be a pro jazz player neither talent nor hard work is enough. It takes both.
My only other comment is to compare this to a crowd of mountain climbers on the side of a mountain. Chances are you're not at the very top or the very bottom. If you look up you are likely to see heights your aren't going to reach. If you look down, you'll see people who will never reach yours.
Mostly, people look up. The idea is to be inspired, the risk is to be overwhelmed.
The middle ground is to be happy you got wherever you are and look for the next step in the right direction.
People argue about the existence or importance of talent. Equal amounts of work don't guarantee equal results. The difference is talent, IMO.
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
This may help:
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don’t be a plonker, it can be singular (one plonker) or plural (2 or more plonkers) as required. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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Nope. In so much as this makes any sense, which it doesn’t. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
People may indeed be genetically better suited to music but it’s not a gene in the sense that a gene encodes proteins etc; the expression of a phenotype is complex. In the Dawkins sense music itself can be considered an extended phenotype.
People use the concept of genes sloppily and like horoscopes or something. It’s all over popular media. Generally it’s benign but there are definitely malignant corners of this pseudoscientific type of discourse.
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It’s a joke, which is a lighthearted play on words intended to amuse or reveal information in an entertaining way. Gig a bit……..gigabit………a unit of digital information storage……….fingers are digits……..genes carry information………. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I think you may have overestimated your audience here. Del Boy’s more my level. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
It’s a joke, which is a lighthearted play on words intended to amuse or reveal information in an entertaining way. Gig a bit……..gigabit………a unit of digital information storage……….fingers are digits……..genes carry information……….
would make a good crossword clue though
Im shit at crosswords
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Jazz impro is not a high math... you do not have to improvize complex form or a fugue on an instrument...One thing that has always puzzled me is when people say just play what you hear in your head. But I don't hear any melody naturally in my imagination.
Can you ever put on an LP with old vocal standard - some Billie's or Ella's stuff from early days and then murmur an improvized tune over it... somethin like - pa-da-ba.. ta-da.. da-da-da. boom))) Just feeling free to sing what ever comes out...
if you hit the context it and it comes out on the way... you have some ideas in your head... maybe they are not as original as were Bird's or Monk's...
Maybe... but still you do that naturally on the spot... it is your song
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No fools or horses here - only a perfect numpty would make that mistake again. Message received! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I think most people misunderstand the reson behind what most people call Talent in music.
I will try to give an example:
Lets say to 14 year old kids both decide to learn guitar. They have the same teacher and practice equal amounts of time. Yet after 2 months one is vastly superior to the other. He would be referred as more talented than the other guy.
If u ask both of them they would sah that they had no Former musical education.
Yet if u take a closer Look u would find out that one of them has been singing with his mother since the age of 3, while shes not a proffessional singer, she sings in decent pitch and has a great taste in music.
The other one never even attempted to sing and music never played a part in their household.
To me stuff like this is very overlooked, most people wouldnt believe what a World of a difference it is to be able to just sing back a note they hear starting from a young age.
Of course if u go further the amount of practice etc comes into play.
I just wanted to a perspective on what in my understanding is the Illusion of what is widely referred to as Talent.
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Don’t forget one kid has a structured hour of practice that is taken as punishment and the instrument goes unused the rest of the day while the other kid practices but also noodles endlessly after their exercises are done.
Same “practice time” completely different situation
Is the second child more talented? No, they play more.Last edited by AllanAllen; 02-14-2022 at 02:23 PM.
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Hi, C, Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The latest findings for musical talent have superseded a "genetics-only" concept and now focus on the study of the epigenome which is both genetic and environmental. Some very interesting studies/research are being written to date. Here's one from "Frontiers in Genetics" in 2011 which is easy to read for the general public. It is my belief as Science continues to conquer the unknowns of the human organism, it will eventually show a map that details every human in minute detail from a bio/chemical/environmental perspective. From a personal observational perspective, I have known musical families my entire life and it was a rarity for a musician to play at very high levels without musicians somewhere in the family tree. My own family had no musicians in my parents' generation(although my parents were competitive Jazz dancers in the 40's/50's) but my maternal grandmother's family had a long line of European classical musicians. My late brother was also musical(trumpet/guitar) but was not bitten by the bug and lacked passion. Free Will? Hmmmmm . . .
Marinero
Toward an Epigenetic View of Our Musical Mind - ResearchGate
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Marinero's linked reference suggests that musical ability can be related to epigenetics, which is an interesting concept. Epigenetics tracks environmental changes to DNA (if I understand correctly) and the concept has been used to explain why the descendants of people who survived famines have higher rates of obesity and diabetes.
This article hypothesizes that developing skills changes the brain in a way that is inheritable. If my grandfather developed the ability, through long hard practice, to hit a 90mph fastball, that skill should come easier to me.
All I can say from my personal experience is that I have inherited my mother's love of music and her ability to attain mediocrity through hard work.
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I wholeheartedly agree. I actually think musical exposure as a child can go a long ways. Even attending Church regularly and singing hymns can greatly improve your musical abilities. Originally Posted by FranzF
I didn't have many musical experiences like that as a kid.
In contrast, I tried to expose my daughter to musical experiences as a young kid as a chorale singer and in Yamaha and her ear is already way better than mine.
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ooh you know I’m a sucker for an academic reference you bad bad man Originally Posted by Marinero
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What can I say? I’m a dinosaur. Stewart Lee is completely wasted on me. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
No fools or horses here - only a perfect numpty would make that mistake again. Message received!
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Originally Posted by FranzF
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re music in the family tree; it’s an odd one. I play with a lot of musicians from musical families. it’s hard to put your finger on what the influence is beyond the genetic sometimes; parents rarely teach their kids (that doesn’t work.)
From my own experience as the only musician in my family as far as I know and putting aside genetic influence for a second, I would say that one thing that held me back from committing was that it was unknown to me that ‘jobbing professional musician’ actually existed as a job and what it entailed. I had (and I daresay still have) basically no clue. It was only on meeting people who were doing sessions and playing on shows etc at jams that I formed a picture.
(And no one outside of music does. When I say I play music for a living, kids ask me if I am famous or on TV because that’s the only reference point they have.)
Anyway I half-jokingly say to young student musicians who bafflingly look to me for advice just to do everything opposite to the way I did it and they ought to work out fine.
The academic words I came across for this type of thing is habitus and capital; and there’s a paper I read recently that charted some case studies between students that were thriving at a conservatoire and those who were having real trouble fitting in and revealed this ‘knowing the ropes’ aspect is a tremendously important factor in getting important people to notice you and put you forward for stuff. This is probably just as important as actual musical ability. Having musicians in the family is no doubt helpful for this.
A teacher or mentors responsibility is to instil some of this in talented youngsters who aspire to the profession and who do not come to it naturally. Not that I would have listened lol. But there are some very reasonable kids out there.
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Originally Posted by DBLR
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I think a huge factor is simply being exposed to music in one form or another at an early age. In my case, my Dad and his fraternal twin brother were "family and friends" performers from an early age, with their matching outfits and ukeleles. He became an accomplished clarinetist. As an adult, he played in the local community orchestra/band, sang in the church choir, sang in a quartet, and got into playing the organ - first with a little Sears Roebuck "chord organ" later working his way up through fancier models with multiple key ranks, bass, pedals, and so forth. Bro and Sis picked up the licorice stick; ever the oddball, I chose trumpet having seen Louis Armstrong on the Ed Sullivan Show* and wanting to be him, as he seemed to be having a great deal of fun. So the four of us played hymns and sundry sheet music (Mom was a painter, and a good one) and generally had music in the home, at church,** in school, starting in sixth grade; so music - its appreciation and performance - has been a prominent thing in my day-to-day life from an early age. Joining and forming and booking bands was a route to playing more and stopping in the middle for some reason a lot less.***
* Also first exposure to The Beatles. We know how that went.
**There was a full-size real pipe organ, played very well by a lady thoroughly versed in the Western canon. Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Buxthude, just to mention a few Bs, and of course cantatas in season - Handel's "M" a perennial hit. Also first exposure to Gospel music, from an exchange program with a Black Church -the old choir switcheroo- that was revelatory: our congregation tended to sing hymns with a certain... uncertainty? hesitancy? These Godly folks sang like they meant it, because - they did. Heartfelt is a weak descriptor in this context. Life-altering.
***One of the big things I love about jazz - the music doesn't stop because somebody (okay, me) plays a note or thirty-five not on the sheet music or the record. They just keep playing! Amazing!
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