Art... ? meaning... ? IDK

[st.bede]

You know how people will say “there are no wrong notes”. I heard someone say that lately in a certain context, that just bothered me. I have been thinking about that since, that experience.


First, there are no wrong notes: in the sense of evil or even useless notes. However, there are certainly varying degrees of tension when notes are placed upon each other. There is also tension in how notes follow each other.


That leads me to think about the issue of craft.


It obvious that craft itself is not the main component in art. In art, we are not building a sea vessel that must float upon water. Matter of fact, no one life depends on the craft involved in art.


So what is important, if it is not craft?


That leaves me with: meaning.

That word meaning is a very vague word. In music, like in language, there is both denotations and connotations. The denotation is the physics of sound. Typically thought of as frequency. Yes, we experience sound, but the meaning of a sound has to do with “connotation”.


I have little control over that aspect of music. I have some. For example, here in the “west”, fast is experienced as happy or lively, whereas slow is experienced as reflective or somber. (There are plenty of examples where the norm is undermined, with varying degrees of success).


So what meaning am I able to create? Is it reduced to almost a solipsism (if I can stretch that word here, to imply purely personal and fixed into that world of only me)?


I do not have an answer, but I do feel that intentionality plays a more important role then I previously thought it did. However, I could be fully wrong, as happens too often for my ego (negative sense of ego) to be happy with.

[emanresu]

Evolution started more than 4b years ago. Before that, there was 0 meaning. Try to comprehend that! It's really strange to think about.
But since then, every word we utter reaches back to that point. Its layers upon layers for eons. "Meaning" is connections and reasons. And other things for sure.

Meaning in music(instrumental) is the craziest of them all.

I honestly have no bloody clue from where "musical meaning" comes from. I think... nobody does.

[princeplanet]

Why does a major triad sound "happy", whilst a minor one sounds "sad"? If you can convince yourself that you've been conditioned to feel this, then you may wish to turn it on it's head (after all, that's what a legion of Atonal composers did last century).

As for Art vs Craft, as you note, there is an overlap isn't there? With huge variations! Consider Rembrandt, where an "errant" brush stroke would appear as conspicuous. Now consider modern abstract painting, where there are no errors...

[princeplanet]

... and while we're on this existential tangent, may I put forward my own musings? (or should I start my own thread?). Anyway, I'm always intrigued as to why we sense a melodic line is "expressing" a relationship to any underlying harmony just because the notes landing on the down beats bear a closer resemblance to the chord of the moment than do the notes on the off beats. Why isn't it arbitrary as to how we hear it - why can't we hear it inside out where the offbeats can align with the chords?

Ah the mysteries of Music, there are so many, like, why are we so offended by drummers with a poor sense of time? Or a guitarist who is slightly out of tune, or the singer with nanny goat vibrato, or ...

[Litterick]

If you were to spend time looking at abstract paintings, you would be able to see the errors. Attention is as important as intention.

[princeplanet]

If you were to spend time looking at abstract paintings, you would be able to see the errors. Attention is as important as intention.

Maybe, but we're splitting hairs on the (proverbial) paint brushes here, I think you get my point - some art requires more craft than others, it's not a subjective call, but quantifiable...

BTW, FWIW, I'm certainly not suggesting any kinds of art are "better" than others...

[emanresu]

Whenever thinking about this topic, I always have the urge to say that musical meaning is created by the music from the starting point.
Like the piece is going to have meaning as it progresses - but it's almost useless as a viewpoint. This happens, of course. Yet sometimes there is only 3-4 notes at the beginning that already has "spark".
Or just a single chord but with a sound or voicing that already lifts you up within seconds.

It seems that the rules of musical meaning are.. there ain't any single solid rule! Music can work in many opposite ways.. many ways that can be all opposite to each other

[Alter]

Why does a major triad sound "happy", whilst a minor one sounds "sad"?

That's because of the overtones that notes produce. The major third is very strong in volume in them, so when you play a major triad you hear notes that are in "compliance" with the overtones that exist. When playing a minor triad, you do hear the major third on the overtones series, and the minor third from the triad. This dissonance makes for a sad sensation....

[emanresu]

When using pure sine waves as the notes, there are no overtones. But sad/happy rule still works well.

[princeplanet]

That's because of the overtones that notes produce. The major third is very strong in volume in them, so when you play a major triad you hear notes that are in "compliance" with the overtones that exist. When playing a minor triad, you do hear the major third on the overtones series, and the minor third from the triad. This dissonance makes for a sad sensation....

Yes, but why must this particular mild dissonance be associated with a sad sensation? It is argued that we have been conditioned to respond this way. If you played both a major and a minor triad to a lost tribe of humans who have never heard western music, would they elicit the same responses? Would be an interesting experiment...

[Marinero]

"It obvious that craft itself is not the main component in art. In art, we are not building a sea vessel that must float upon water. Matter of fact, no one life depends on the craft involved in art." st bede


Hi, S,
Can you produce a great representational painting without shading, definition, form, color, line, space?
Can you create great music without knowledge of harmony, counterpoint, melody, rhythm, form?
Can you write a great novel, play, or poem without clarity, plot, setting, characterization, theme?

For the record, nothing could be further from the Truth than your above remarks. A great work of Art IS a beautiful sea vessel that MUST float on the water. Otherwise, it's just babble. So, please provide us with an example of your concept of "Art" that fits your above beliefs. Thanks in advance.
Marinero

[st.bede]

Craft is always present.

I would argue that Beethoven’s melodic elements are not nearly as developed as many other composers working in the “classical” (art music) tradition. I still think there is power in his works.

At the same time 12 tone row stuff can be interesting but sometimes end up sounding more like an experiment or a technical practice. I still like 12 tone row compositions, but I tend to like when the rules are relaxed a bit.

I always ask my self how much craft was involved in a song. Often, with some popular music, the answer is that: limited amount of melodic development is utilized, harmonic content is minimal, timbre is predictable, and rhythmically the song is cliche.

At the same time, there is a lot of craft put into “elevator” music.

Large businesses pay high amounts for product design. One assumes that the hired commercial artists are highly trained, and fully utilizing their skill set. I now wonder, why I do not go to my pantry, and gaze in the bliss of artistic achievement.

If we attached a title and name to the typical price label in a grocery store, would people walk a little slower and talk less?

[emanresu]

Once this happened. Got a new group of students who never even had touched the guitar. One of them picked up the electric guitar,
cranked up some knobs. And pulled the low E quite heavily and let it ring. I swear this was on par with what ANY superstar could do - how it sounded that moment and that enjoyment that followed
No craft needed there.

[st.bede]

When it comes to sad/happy experience of music, there is always the cultural elements that need to be accounted for.

For example, in Balinese music fast tempos are associated with grief. A “funeral dirge” clips along at a mighty fast speed.

[Marinero]

Craft is always present.

I would argue that Beethoven’s melodic elements are not nearly as developed as many other composers working in the “classical” (art music) tradition. I still think there is power in his works.

At the same time 12 tone row stuff can be interesting but sometimes end up sounding more like an experiment or a technical practice. I still like 12 tone row compositions, but I tend to like when the rules are relaxed a bit.

I always ask my self how much craft was involved in a song. Often, with some popular music, the answer is that: limited amount of melodic development is utilized, harmonic content is minimal, timbre is predictable, and rhythmically the song is cliche.

At the same time, there is a lot of craft put into “elevator” music.

Large businesses pay high amounts for product design. One assumes that the hired commercial artists are highly trained, and fully utilizing their skill set. I now wonder, why I do not go to my pantry, and gaze in the bliss of artistic achievement.

If we attached a title and name to the typical price label in a grocery store, would people walk a little slower and talk less?

Hi, B,
Thanks for the honest reply. Yes, craft is always present otherwise-- there is NO Art. Just primordial mish mash. However, when you say "I would argue that Beethoven’s melodic elements are not nearly as developed as many other composers working in the “classical” (art music) tradition(st. bede)" you completely lose me. Can you provide a concrete musical example of your statement?
Marinero

[st.bede]

Hello M

For an example: I would hum (sing), Beethoven’s 5th, and then hum Mozart’s overture for The Marriage of Figaro. (I would not be surprised that both those works are stuck into a large number of people memories. On the flip side: I taught years of guitar and, it surprised me how many people did not know who the Beatles were).

Here is something I like to think about every know and again. People can not do anything random. So if organizing is what creates meaning, then it is impossible for anyone to not create meaning at any moment.

However, I also like to think about Kant’s categorical imperatives. Perhaps the mind’s structure itself has to create “meaning” for us to even be aware of something.

[Marinero]

Hello M

For an example: I would hum (sing), Beethoven’s 5th, and then hum Mozart’s overture for The Marriage of Figaro. (I would not be surprised that both those works are stuck into a large number of people memories. On the flip side: I taught years of guitar and, it surprised me how many people did not know who the Beatles were).

Here is something I like to think about every know and again. People can not do anything random. So if organizing is what creates meaning, then it is impossible for anyone to not create meaning at any moment.

However, I also like to think about Kant’s categorical imperatives. Perhaps the mind’s structure itself has to create “meaning” for us to even be aware of something.

Hi, S,
Very few people today could hum Beethoven and Mozart's above references unless they were classically trained. However, if they watched the "Three Stooges" they'd have the motifs down cold. In re: the Beatles . . . I can't imagine anyone on the planet that hasn't heard one of their songs played ad nauseum. I can't stand the Beatles . . . but, I grew up in Chicago on a steady diet of Soul/Funk/R@B/Jazz.
So, when you say people cannot do anything at "random," it necessitates "consciousness" or a conscious decision. Did you think about killing the fire ant when it bit your foot or did you just respond instinctively? Did you jump away from the car that was going to hit you after conscious deliberation? Did you think about blocking a blow to your face that came out of an angry crowd?
Last paragraph: awareness does not necessitate meaning. Agree. One could be aware of a volcano that is ready to erupt but not understand the meaning of the event through the mind or experience. Simply, awareness of a smoking volcano. But, Kant's "categorical imperatives" have nothing to do with this idea since they cannot create meaning but rather, only, establish the moral law(s-Man/God made) which have nothing to do with physical awareness. And, however much I enjoy these discussions, we will quickly lose our readers who are already matching the Dorian to m7 chords with reckless abandon.
Marinero

[st.bede]

.... I made a mistake, I meant Kant’s thinking about a pirori (thing in itself) versus a posteriori. Kant’s categories in which conscience itself has to have the structure to create an understanding. For example, time might not exist in the way we understand it to. Maybe everything has already happened but since our conscience can only understand it as linear, we experience in such a way.

(I will give myself some lenience because, I have not been in reified circles since 2002. This is probably the first time Kant has come since then. My philosophy “chops” are rusty. At one point, philosophy was my second love. I guess I must of dumped that “girlfriend”, for family life. Not sure if that was the right decision, given the nature of my marriage).

My reaction to something (be it instinctual or reasoned), can not be random. If something can not be random it has to be on a level organized. (There could be a fallacy here: I can not remember the name if it but the teleological argument for the existence of god, has this fallacy... now I remember: equivocation). If the definition of art is the organizing of certain elements, then anyone picking up a set a crayons and drawing is creating art.

There are issues here. Is craft what creates meaning or is meaning created somewhere else. (... they are not mutual exclusive). I did read at one point, that all the questions in the philosophy of aesthetics had been throughly answered: thus, that area of inquiry was dead. I am still waiting for the official declaration.

My question would be, “how well did the three stogies superimpose the dorian”?

[Marinero]

"My question would be, “how well did the three stogies superimpose the dorian”?" St. Bede

Well, you asked for it . . . Marinero


https://youtu.be/h7oSi4Q23Io