is this still jazz?

**julesjules** · 12-23-2021, 09:17 AM

Is this still jazz? or fusion?

cheers
jules

**AllanAllen** · 12-23-2021, 10:40 AM

Sounds like progressive metal to me. It's most likely highly rehearsed and they will be playing it the same as the recording for a decade.

**julesjules** · 12-23-2021, 10:46 AM

yeah, all these artists like Plini, Animals as Leaders, Polyphia, etc...I find it interesting how much is still improvised on concerts...

**Clint 55** · 12-23-2021, 11:01 AM

Why would that be jazz lol? It's prog metal.

**Jimmy blue note** · 12-23-2021, 11:03 AM

It depends on who you ask. "Jazz" is a term of convenience especially for promoters, who often use the label to generate sales for their shows and festivals.
If they improvise to any practical degree, you might say it's 'inspired by' jazz ideas. If there are jazz players who find elements of this music exciting to incorporate, you might say some jazz music is inspired by progressive rock.
It would be interesting to know if the musicians themselves see any connexion between what they do and the jazz tradition. I found more jazz in the spirit of Television (Tom Verlaine's 'punk' group) when I went to CBGBs than I do in the spirit of those who'd show up at jams playing note for note Coltrane passages. Sometimes labels get in the way of hearing what's (and what is not) there.
For me, if I like it, I listen and I don't label. Personally, I don't hear the elements of jazz that I consider defining parameters in this musical example, so it's not jazz for me. But I kinda like it. Thanks for posting!

**Clint 55** · 12-23-2021, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

labels get in the way of hearing what is not there.

This. People just want to call stuff jazz for some reason? Why do you need to call prog metal jazz lol?

Played in the groove and style of metal - 1 count against jazz.
No evidence of improv - 2 counts against jazz.
Melodies are arranged in distinct sections, no flowing over changes - definitively not jazz since it has none of the defining characteristics.

Why do you have to call stuff jazz that isn't jazz? Metal has had innovative melodies for decades! It's part of the genre.

**Jimmy blue note** · 12-23-2021, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Clint 55

This. People just want to call stuff jazz for some reason? Why do you need to call prog metal jazz lol?
Why do you have to call stuff jazz that isn't jazz? Metal has had innovative melodies for decades! It's part of the genre.

My point, yes. But take a promoter who wants a 'wide audience', and put a whole bunch of unrelated acts and whore out the Jazz label to create the [your city] Jazz Festival, and a whole bunch of people are gonna think of a whole lot more as "jazz".
I worked with a girl who told me she loved jazz. She loves Coltrane, she said. I was playing (Coltrane) Ballads one day and she said "Could you turn that off and play some jazz please?" Turns out she listens to the smooth jazz on her cable.
When did the name become more appealing than the music?

**AllanAllen** · 12-23-2021, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

My point, yes. But take a promoter who wants a 'wide audience', and put a whole bunch of unrelated acts and whore out the Jazz label to create the [your city] Jazz Festival, and a whole bunch of people are gonna think of a whole lot more as "jazz".
I worked with a girl who told me she loved jazz. She loves Coltrane, she said. I was playing (Coltrane) Ballads one day and she said "Could you turn that off and play some jazz please?" Turns out she listens to the smooth jazz on her cable.
When did the name become more appealing than the music?

Sometimes people just want to hear something pleasant. I turn off Bandleader Coltrane more often than Sideman Coltrane.

**Clint 55** · 12-23-2021, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

My point, yes. But take a promoter who wants a 'wide audience', and put a whole bunch of unrelated acts and whore out the Jazz label to create the [your city] Jazz Festival, and a whole bunch of people are gonna think of a whole lot more as "jazz".
I worked with a girl who told me she loved jazz. She loves Coltrane, she said. I was playing (Coltrane) Ballads one day and she said "Could you turn that off and play some jazz please?" Turns out she listens to the smooth jazz on her cable.
When did the name become more appealing than the music?

Yep there's that about the jazz fests lol. Also lol about the coworker claiming to like jazz and liking smooth jazz and NOT Coltrane ballads!

It is a strange phenomenon why the name can be applied as more important than the music. I think it has something to do with people thinking it means experimental and elevated. Rock band being creative and improving - it's jazz! Rap band sampling a vibraphone - jazz! Metal band playing melodies - jazz!

**citizenk74** · 12-23-2021, 12:40 PM

"Jazz" as a descriptor has become more sizzle than steak. It marks the triumph of marketing over meaning.

**Jimmy blue note** · 12-23-2021, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Clint 55

It is a strange phenomenon why the name can be applied as more important than the music. I think it has something to do with people thinking it means experimental and elevated. jazz!

Originally Posted by citizenk74

"Jazz" as a descriptor has become more sizzle than steak. It marks the triumph of marketing over meaning.

Well put! More sizzle than steak. Now I'm hungry.

**EllenGtrGrl** · 12-23-2021, 01:16 PM

As a jazzer, who is also a bit of a metalhead, I'd say no, it is not jazz. It sounds like a combination of prog metal, mixed with some groove metal. I've heard some Dream Theater that sounds pretty similar to this. Maybe at the most - this is jazz metal, but as I alluded to, there is a quite of bit of prog metal that has jazz elements in it.

BTW, it sounds pretty cool, and I do agree - sometimes people will describe it as jazz, in the hopes that it will "appeal" to more people. As for the woman who thought all "real jazz" is of the smooth jazz variety - whatever. I myself am definitely not into smooth jazz (and unfortunately, around here, almost all "jazz radio" is of the smooth jazz variety) - to me it sounds too much like the smooth music played on adult contemporary stations, which for me, only works as background noise. It's very much on the vein of the music portrayed in the "Yacht Rock" mockumentary.

**David B** · 12-23-2021, 01:20 PM

The original poster should perhaps make it clear in his post that he's one of the guitarists on the track (Samo Šalamon).

I'm only aware of them via the internet guitar world, but there are certainly lots of excellent musicians doing creative work today in the progressive rock and metal scenes. I would say however that though every jazz musician is an improvisor, not every improvisor is a jazz musician.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-23-2021, 01:28 PM

Not even kind of jazz, but I like it.

**Donplaysguitar** · 12-23-2021, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by julesjules

Is this still jazz? or fusion?

cheers
jules

“Still” Jazz? Nope, never was jazz. And Fusion? Nope. Not if your use of the term means Jazz/Rock as it originally did.

In other words, where is the jazz? It’s reasonable to call it rock. But you know all of this.

If one has to ask, they already know the answer.

Cheers.