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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    But there's a huge difference between depth and shallow entertainment.
    Yes, there is a huge difference between what appeals to grown ups and what appeals to children. The target market used to be older grown ups. The shift to younger adults (eventually teenagers, then children) created a growing target market comprising reduced sophistication, lower expectations, shorter attention spans, and less impulse control - the current focus on children approaches the perfect storm for deterioration of music, movies, and general entertainment.

    I imagine it looks something like this

    Target Age For Entertainment Dollar

    No, Today's Music Isn't Boring (A Response To Rick Beato)-graph-jpg

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Not mine, thanks.

    Geez...

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Yes, there is a huge difference between what appeals to grown ups and what appeals to children. The target market used to be older grown ups. The shift to younger adults (eventually teenagers, then children) created a growing target market comprising reduced sophistication, lower expectations, shorter attention spans, and less impulse control - the current focus on children approaches the perfect storm for deterioration of music, movies, and general entertainment.

    I imagine it looks something like this

    Target Age For Entertainment Dollar

    No, Today's Music Isn't Boring (A Response To Rick Beato)-graph-jpg
    The graph suggests you can fool some of the people all of the time.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I imagine it looks something like this

    Target Age For Entertainment Dollar

    No, Today's Music Isn't Boring (A Response To Rick Beato)-graph-jpg
    I'll grant that's what you imagine. Reality is different.
    The group (in the US) that spends the most entertainment dollars annually is Generation X ($3,921), followed by Boomers ($3,801), and then Millennials ($2,391). (These figures are the average for members of these groups; some members spend much more while others spend much less.) These three groups together outnumber teens over 3 to 1. Generation Z (-1997-2012) slightly outnumbers Gen X but is smaller than the other two. Taken together, Millennials, Gen X and Boomers are over 200 million people while Gen Z is 67 million, and that group includes people up to 24, so many of them are outside your imagined Target Audience for Entertainment Dollars.

    The average teen doesn't have enough income to spend as much as the other groups on entertainment. (What teens tend to have to spend is TIME.) The two things teens spend most of their money on are clothing and food. Most of what teens spend comes from their parents. (Roughly 60 percent.) Granted, they have some influence on what their parents buy.

  6. #55

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    I can't listen to someone ramble without stating a premise..

    Popular music may have gotten worse, but music as a whole today is so vast that it doesn't even matter. Plus there's the internet so you can learn or listen to absolutely whatever you want. I prefer having that advantage even if pop music or culture can be stupid.

  7. #56

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    And not have to pay for it either. That's exactly why there's no great Music any longer!
    Think about it rationally, everyone no matter the profession it is, needs to get paid. Other wise you are working for tips or free!

    And yes YouTube likes get advertisers, but that's not a great revenue model for an entire industry. As I keep saying you will not find these problems with other professions.
    And no you can't play doctor or lawyer without a Liscence. But you certainly can in any of the arts. So long as it isn't a teacher at a school or college. Then you need a Masters!

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I'll grant that's what you imagine. Reality is different.
    The graph is about the target age.
    Not about our spending.

  9. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    .
    And no you can't play doctor or lawyer without a Liscence. But you certainly can in any of the arts. So long as it isn't a teacher at a school or college. Then you need a Masters!
    So you want a panel of sort deciding on who can and cannot play music?

    You figure that such a panel would have given Bird or Monk a license? Chuck Berry or Little Richard? Elvis? Young Beatles?






    (Also last time I checked letting a random person perform medical procedures will probably end with someone dying. Letting a random person play guitar in a bar, less so)
    Last edited by Lobomov; 07-22-2021 at 07:41 AM.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    The graph is about the target age.
    Not about our spending.
    The graph is imaginary.
    If it shows that the target is the group that spends the least, on average, for entertainment, it's simply wrong.
    The 18-34 demographic is the main focus of advertisers, as that group is seen as having the most money to blow on entertainment. (And if you get young folk to latch onto your brand, they may well be repeat customers for decades.)

    Obviously, if you are selling denture cream, the 18-34 year old crowd is not where you look to get a lot of business.
    If you are selling LEGOs, your target is little kids (and their parents, who will actually buy the LEGOs).
    The Rolling Stones will resume their No Filter tour in September. Pit tickets start at $500.(That will add up to millions of entertainment dollars.) The target audience for them is not 15-year-olds.

    One person may be in several target audiences (-urbanite, a professional, member of a gym, a bicyclist, a vegan, fan of death metal, player of video games, regular movie-goer, college graduate, home owner, renter, someone who dines out once a week...)

  11. #60

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    Lobomov you're missing the point. It's not a troll on the bridge scenario, it's about how the public doesn't value musicians who actually are doing it for a living.
    Try putting tip jars out for any other line if work other than entertainment, as a viable way to survive.

    Chuck Berry and the others you mention all hired studio musicians to record their famous albums. Look at The Wrecking Crew, Muscle Shoals, American Studio, Sea Saint Studios in New Orleans, Motown, etc.
    They were paid and often not enough!

  12. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Lobomov you're missing the point.
    Ok .. In order to keep this human and not principled/heartless. If you or anyone else is struggling these days after picking a line of work that was highly promising 30-40 years ago the I have nothing but sympathy and best wishes. I sincerely hope you're not actually struggling these days, but it's only not as good as you hoped back in the day.

    Given that you've posted about being able to decline gigs with backing tracks thankfully it's sound like it's the latter

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    it's about how the public doesn't value musicians who actually are doing it for a living.
    And now back to the principled stuff.
    The public values what it values .. and that is how it should be. If it wasn't like this then non-german composers might be banned and we'd still be listening to Wagner, Beethoven and Bach

    Most successful careers start with the public ... You mention the Police often enough. Their first record fell flat on it's face and they built their reputation/success by touring the US in a van most of 1978
    If the public doesn't value what you bring to the table for you to make a living then they're not wrong. You're the one that just didn't bring enough to the table.


    Btw this is a "What the public likes" discussion. I am not discussing minimum wage, unions and conditions. You want to start a discussion about minimum wage for musicians or Amazon workers for that matter then I'm all for it. I'm just reacting to slurs against "The public"

    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Try putting tip jars out for any other line if work other than entertainment, as a viable way to survive.
    Is that a bad thing that you have the possibility of doing that?
    Most other lines of work just don't pay if you bring a service that isn't in demand. You don't have shit. You just can't make any money .. end of story!


    That is the thing .. In threads like these what is thrown out is always lines of work like doctor, plumper and what not that has a huge demand.

    You should be comparing to all the fringe stuff that all became obsolete with technology. As said my favorite example of this is how word processing software make all typesetters unemployed basically overnight 30 years ago. None of those typesetters can put out a tipping jar, can they?

    Personally I work in statistics
    Over the last 30 years my workplace has gotten rid of a lot of people cause software these days can do calculations that used to require 3-5 persons doing it on paper 30 years ago (Everyone sitting in front of a PC didn't really become a thing here until late 90s/early 00s).
    My predecessors had a supervising role, where they'd check up on the paper calculations that 3-4 office workers did.
    These days you have to learn how to use programming languages that can handle large amounts of data, so we are as much programmers as all the other stuff that we did previously.
    I'm just me these days and have no one else than me, while at the same time not only having lost those 3-5 guys mentioned, but also doing the work that 3 units used to do back in the day. In essence I'm personalty doing what 3 teams used to do .. That is 10-15 guys

    Going smaller and smaller units isn't only a music business thing




    So yeah ... Back in the day you'd need at least drum, bass and guitar to make a record out of necessity. These days you can do it with less. Is it really the musicians that aren't being valued or did they just not being enough to the table to make a difference?

    I dunno?

    But looking at the world it does seem like they in fact where just necessary in order to make the product same way that typesetters where necessary in order to make a newspaper or books

    Or on my level the same way that 10-15 persons where needed to do what I currently am doing just by myself. I don't see you lamenting the 10-15 jobs lost in statistic, do I?


    It's all in the mindset ... You can lament that you're not in medicine or you can be thankful that you always have the possibility to take your guitar and a tip jar out in the world. Most guys that worked lines of work that diminished or outright died due to technology can't even do that.

  13. #62

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    So here's my take. I consider myself a kid, and I'd be lying if I said I "hate the pop music that today's young'uns listen to! How do they enjoy that crap!?", because frankly, I am one of today's young'uns. XD But I can understand where y'all are coming from. I think jads57 put it best: "Pop Music compared to John Coltrane is basically like comparing McDonald's to 4 Star Michelin restaurant." I would agree with that comparison. McDonald's doesn't have very good food -- everyone knows that. But people eat it because they like it anyway. Most people enjoy it because it reminds them of when they were a kid, and getting McNuggets from McDonald's was a rare treat that meant a day was going to be extra-special. As a kid grows up, they realize that there's much better food than chicken nuggets from McDonald's -- steak, cheesecake, high-end bison burgers, etc. But, they never stop eating McDonald's.

    I love listening to music from the late 2000s and early 2010s because it reminds me of being a little kid. I realize the music isn't very good, but it conveys a feeling of nostalgia, and for me, that's enough. Even music that I didn't listen to when I was a kid, like music from modern Broadway (e.g. Hamilton, Dear Evan Hansen, In the Heights) is still good in my opinion, because it conveys a feeling. I tend to not like today's pop music because it is not nostalgic for me, and frankly, it is very unemotional and meaningless. But "today's music" doesn't just mean pop; it also means Broadway music, lofi, etc. I think it's tempting to judge all modern music under one banner of "unartful and bad trash", but I think it's worth noting that there are still artists today who are very talented. I don't mean the likes of Katy Perry or Doja Cat, but rather I'm speaking of actually good singers, like Phillipa Soo or Melissa Berrera, or talented composers, like Lin-Manuel Miranda or Pasek and Paul.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfwoodland
    So here's my take. I consider myself a kid, and I'd be lying if I said I "hate the pop music that today's young'uns listen to! How do they enjoy that crap!?", because frankly, I am one of today's young'uns. XD But I can understand where y'all are coming from. I think jads57 put it best: "Pop Music compared to John Coltrane is basically like comparing McDonald's to 4 Star Michelin restaurant." I would agree with that comparison. McDonald's doesn't have very good food -- everyone knows that. But people eat it because they like it anyway. Most people enjoy it because it reminds them of when they were a kid, and getting McNuggets from McDonald's was a rare treat that meant a day was going to be extra-special. As a kid grows up, they realize that there's much better food than chicken nuggets from McDonald's -- steak, cheesecake, high-end bison burgers, etc. But, they never stop eating McDonald's.

    I love listening to music from the late 2000s and early 2010s because it reminds me of being a little kid. I realize the music isn't very good, but it conveys a feeling of nostalgia, and for me, that's enough. Even music that I didn't listen to when I was a kid, like music from modern Broadway (e.g. Hamilton, Dear Evan Hansen, In the Heights) is still good in my opinion, because it conveys a feeling. I tend to not like today's pop music because it is not nostalgic for me, and frankly, it is very unemotional and meaningless. But "today's music" doesn't just mean pop; it also means Broadway music, lofi, etc. I think it's tempting to judge all modern music under one banner of "unartful and bad trash", but I think it's worth noting that there are still artists today who are very talented. I don't mean the likes of Katy Perry or Doja Cat, but rather I'm speaking of actually good singers, like Phillipa Soo or Melissa Berrera, or talented composers, like Lin-Manuel Miranda or Pasek and Paul.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Thank you! I'm glad to be here.

  16. #65

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    Well the fact that most of you arent Professional Musicians as a living, says a lot about your viewpoints.
    While I can see some legitimacy in some things, mostly it comes down to not living in a working professional musicians shoes.

    Broadway Shows were mentioned. Most musicians have been replaced by synth and drum machines, and very few real players. Sure costs are cut, but are ticket prices and or profits?
    Pop Music is more popular than ever, but the free and Spotify models don't provide revenues to produce it.

    If people are happy with machines and 4 bar adnaseum and Rap. Well music as a profession, art, and higher form is over! People like George Martin, Arif Mardin, Claire Fischer, as well as engineers and all of the great studio musicians don't work for FREE!

  17. #66

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    Sigh.

    'It ain't over til it's over'...

  18. #67

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    Slow Deaths are the Worst!

  19. #68
    Cheers Jads!
    Last edited by Lobomov; 07-23-2021 at 03:55 PM.

  20. #69

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    I figured I'd put this vid by the same guy here, rather than start another thread. It IS along the same lines.

    I'm starting to like this guy---hope I'm not making a mistake. I see guitars in the background, otherwise I'd figure him for a music sociologist; critic---or some other egghead stripe.

    In the 1st few minutes I was ready to dismiss him as a slumming weirdo desperate to prove he's hip by talking about only the marquee names---no soldiers, none of the folks jazz people in the know would know. (Kind of like Van Morrison's ridiculous pastiche, Moondance---the over-emphasized accents, etc.). And I found his over-effusive praise of certain people mildly irritating.

    OK, so he's not a jazzer. Ain't gonna shoot the guy. And after about 10 minutes I realized that his research and analysis of the slipping popularity of jazz to be very worth hearing. (Disclosure: his views sometimes parallel my own). He's right about bebop, a musician's music (but still danceable if you REALLY listened) turning off a lot of casual listeners and the jitterbug crowd. Going to listen on. Your call...


  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    (snip)
    OK, so he's not a jazzer. Ain't gonna shoot the guy. And after about 10 minutes I realized that his research and analysis of the slipping popularity of jazz to be very worth hearing. (Disclosure: his views sometimes parallel my own). He's right about bebop, a musician's music (but still danceable if you REALLY listened) turning off a lot of casual listeners and the jitterbug crowd. Going to listen on. Your call...
    To say that Rick Beato is "not a jazzer" indicates that you are unacquainted with his channel. Watch some more.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    To say that Rick Beato is "not a jazzer" indicates that you are unacquainted with his channel. Watch some more.
    That's what it seemed at 1st b/c he only mentioned the names anyone in music would know.

    I WILL watch on. The cat's intriguing. You can see his brain. (Hope it doesn't spill out---hell of a mess)...

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    That's what it seemed at 1st b/c he only mentioned the names anyone in music would know.

    I WILL watch on. The cat's intriguing. You can see his brain. (Hope it doesn't spill out---hell of a mess)...
    Check out one of his latest on "the greatest solo of all time" which a performance by Oscar Peterson.

    Ps, he is an excellent guitar player in numerous genres and no slouch on keyboard and drums.

  24. #73

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    This guy is too cool! He knows a lot and has mentioned names I didn't know. I'm becoming a fan...

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    This guy is too cool! He knows a lot and has mentioned names I didn't know. I'm becoming a fan...
    It's a great channel with a diversity of interesting music topics. He taught music at a university and his earlier videos go very deep into music theory. And, of course, there are his son Dylan's amazing feats of absolute pitch which attracted a lot of folks to the channel early on.