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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by gcb
    Thanks for posting Wooly Bully.

    The reservoir of great popular music from those happy bygone days is bottomless.

    Brian Wilson is pretty damn impressive. The esteem most musicians have for him is totally justified.

    Pop people don't know how much the Beach Boys were influenced by the Hi-Los (Gene Puerling, genius) and the Four Freshmen. Here's proof:


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Whoa, I love "Sugar Sugar", "Wooly Bully" AND John Coltrane. And Bach for that matter. Don't be L7. ;o)
    I LOVED Wooly Bully when it came out! (I was 10, vacationing in upstate NY). I love it still. They were entertaining; had a visual 'hook' (why the hell not if the music's happening?) and the song has a hell of a beat. Lou Dennis (flute) & myself played it as recently as 2 years ago in Surburban Sta., Philly. People still smile when it's played...

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Hey hey .. Never said that I don't like boomer music ..


    Question for you Mark

    Is this song an example of how great the music of those times was or is it a shining example of how shitty it was?



    (It's both, right? )
    Forget the ridiculous get-ups---it was the '60s and EVERYONE was milking hippiedom. But this is a way more interesting song w/a downright spooky and memorable progression. Wastes the Butterfly, 30 seconds of the 1st round:



    (Gotta love Rick Moranis in lotus position on guitar!)...

  5. #29

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    I thought this was a hell of a film, but it also shows the incredibly inflated egos of some of the '60s rockers.

    Don't get me wrong: I had the same heroes as my '60s-early '70s buddies. We haunted the Fillmore East. I saw a lot of these guys live. Cream holds up with some good songs and they were individual talents. Jack Bruce was a nice writer.


    But Ginger Baker a drum giant? A JAZZ drummer? Pul-eeze. The man played everything at the same thudding dynamic level. To hear HIM tell it he was the s$%t. (Oh, I forgot about the endorsement of Music Giant Johnny Rotten---my bad!) With Vernell Fournier in the world, ladies and gentlemen of the jury? LOL...


  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Point is there's tons of crap music in all generations, it's just that I can't find any good music in the last 10 years or the invention of YouTube and lack of actual musicians that are involved in making it.

    I will say Dirty Loops is probably one of the only ones. But even then it doesn't verge on say Heavy Weather by Zawinul and Company.

    I keep saying this adnaseum, but Music has become mainly a visual medium and less an audio one.
    No good music in the last 10 years? Really? How about War on Drugs? Jr Jr? QOTSA? Arcade Fire? How about new prog metal groups like Animals as Leaders, or older ones still churning out interesting stuff like Opeth or Dream Theatre?

    Also a ton of interesting stuff from smaller bands & individuals that you never would have heard before youtube.

    (PS thanks for mentioning Dirty Loops. Hadn't heard of them before and I'm listening to Hit Me now. Good stuff!)

  7. #31

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    I cant music without Soul in it. That goes for every genre from Hank Williams, Bach, Chuck Berry, James Brown, The Beatles, The Police, Led Zepplin, to Coltrane, George Benson, etc.

    Although there are currently talented musicians, there's no great Music any longer,in my opinion!

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I thought this was a hell of a film, but it also shows the incredibly inflated egos of some of the '60s rockers.

    Don't get me wrong: I had the same heroes as my '60s-early '70s buddies. We haunted the Fillmore East. I saw a lot of these guys live. Cream holds up with some good songs and they were individual talents. Jack Bruce was a nice writer.


    But Ginger Baker a drum giant? A JAZZ drummer? Pul-eeze. The man played everything at the same thudding dynamic level. To hear HIM tell it he was the s$%t. (Oh, I forgot about the endorsement of Music Giant Johnny Rotten---my bad!) With Vernell Fournier in the world, ladies and gentlemen of the jury? LOL...
    Baker is one of the most influential drummers in the rock & metal world, at least according to folks like Neil Peart, Terry Bozio, & Phil Collins (and many many others). So yes, he was a drum giant.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    Baker is one of the most influential drummers in the rock & metal world, at least according to folks like Neil Peart, Terry Bozio, & Phil Collins (and many many others). So yes, he was a drum giant.
    PS - Baker started off as a jazz drummer and lists only jazz drummers as his influences. In the 90s, he played with Frisell & Haden. He toured with Ginger Baker Jazz Confusion when he was 75.

  10. #34

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    Say what you will. I appreciate him and he and Bruce DID have jazz credentials and aspirations.

    But let's look at the record. Baker states in the film that Cream was a 'jazz group'. Now, please, I DON'T want to open the floodgates here. But arena rock was what was killing jazz, and driving many players to Europe. I can see Jimi Hendrix as being very jazz-influenced and a talent with phenomenal ears. But Cream? Listen to their live performances to see how loud; pretentious; repetitive and thin their music really was. And listen to Baker thudding away. Those guys weren't only tripping on drugs but themselves.

    And it's a shame, b/c the studio LPs really hold up. I guess it's the old story about egos coming to the party and gouging themselves. Eric Clapton seems to be the most humble, but what do I know? Anyway, he survived pretty intact and I'm glad for him.

    But i meant what I said about Baker's dynamic level. Listen to ANY performance in the film and find ANY dynamic variety---I double-dare yiz. His playing was as overblown and self-important as he was. Jazz drummers play for the group. Did he? Listen to the facts...

  11. #35

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    It's just that banging is a music killer.

    Staying with rock, I found Little Richard & Jerry Lee Lewis good entertainers, but their banging makes them unlistenable. Billy Joel & Elton John entertain just as much but are 100 times the musicians. They know form; you can hear their training and seriousness. The songwriting reflects it. Elton John, as Reg Dwight, actually made a living as a jazz pianist early on. Could Jerry Lee?

    This is what turns people off to rock---the baseness of it at its worst, and the popularity is depressing to serious musicians and intelligent people.

    It's a miracle Frank Zappa went over as big as he did---and heartening...

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Say what you will. I appreciate him and he and Bruce DID have jazz credentials and aspirations.

    But let's look at the record. Baker states in the film that Cream was a 'jazz group'. Now, please, I DON'T want to open the floodgates here. But arena rock was what was killing jazz, and driving many players to Europe. I can see Jimi Hendrix as being very jazz-influenced and a talent with phenomenal ears. But Cream? Listen to their live performances to see how loud; pretentious; repetitive and thin their music really was. And listen to Baker thudding away. Those guys weren't only tripping on drugs but themselves.

    And it's a shame, b/c the studio LPs really hold up. I guess it's the old story about egos coming to the party and gouging themselves. Eric Clapton seems to be the most humble, but what do I know? Anyway, he survived pretty intact and I'm glad for him.

    But i meant what I said about Baker's dynamic level. Listen to ANY performance in the film and find ANY dynamic variety---I double-dare yiz. His playing was as overblown and self-important as he was. Jazz drummers play for the group. Did he? Listen to the facts...
    Didn't see the film, but I wasn't responding to any assertion that Cream was a jazz group (although in Baker's words “Cream was two jazz players and a blues guitarist playing improvised music”.)

    As far as Hendrix, his influences were R&B and blues. And although he jammed with folks like McLaughlin and Coryell, I definitely wouldn't call him "jazz influenced".

  13. #37

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    Eddie Diehl was the guy who said Hendrix was a jazz player (and Eddie HATED rock)---and I agree. His rhythmic sense was way more complex than the average rock or blueser---lotta superimposition. The other jazz-influenced player was (is) Buzzy Feiten, still a favorite.

    I was around and listening in the late '60s-early '70s. It was a very fertile period---probably the creative peak of rock. But there was a lot of cross-pollenization going on, everyone listening and learning from each other. It was very good for jazz, despite some unfortunate elitist and dismissive remarks by Bill Evans. He should've known better, he was smarter than that...

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Let's examine that statement

    Two questions:
    What exactly made the boomer generation pop music interesting?
    When exactly did pop music become trivia created by music corporations to separate teenagers from their money?
    1. Boomers grew up with it.
    2. When boomers had grown up.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I found them increasingly pompous and bombastic after the 1st few albums. Wayne Shorter was wasted in that group, and probably too humble to go toe-to-toe with the towering ego of Zawinul (the pomposity puppeteer in the group).

    I admit that Zawinul's unlikeability interferes with my enjoyment of the group---and that shouldn't be. But those banks of keyboards; the looping on Birdland; the battle of egos it became, like a jazz Cream...

    For the record he WAS a great talent, player and writer. I just heard more humility and musicality in the Cannonball/Soulmates period. But he ate Weather Report whole...
    I was watching the Jaco Pastorius doc and am copying and pasting some very different thoughts from the thread elsewhere here about it and a family matter:

    It's very moving.

    Watching it I have to dial back some of my comments about Josef Zawinul. His affection and respect for Jaco were genuine. You can't fake those things.

    It's strange to have right in the middle gotten a desperate call from my brother, who is in the throes of the same illness Jaco had. He's living in an assisted living facility in Fla.---a place he doesn't like or trust, and neither do I. But he's in crisis and acting out and has no one there. I may have to make a trip. Gonna talk to the assistant director tomorrow and check in w/my bro and see what can be done.

    Bipolar is a serious condition, and easily misunderstood. I used to see Jaco in his last days. He came into the Jazz Cultural Theater barefoot, wanting to play with a pick. People were avoiding him b/c of erratic behavior. And we know how it ended.

    But there's help; hope; and support. If you know someone with bipolar 2---the more serious form---do what you can, even if it's just to listen. Everyone deserves to feel they're cared for and not alone...

  16. #40

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    Is this about pop music? Screw that. Anyway, I see Weather Report and Cream have been mentioned, so...

    Guitarists Matteo Mancuso, Nir Felder, Julian Lage, Matthew Stevens, Sandra Hempel, Gilad..... are all currently breaking new ground one way or another. It's up to you if you want to listen or not.

    Laura Mvula - I remember a sensational collab. with Snarky Puppy. Great arrangement in the Conditional clip, albeit very midi-sounding. Definitely warrants further listening.

    Jimi H. was undoubtedly influenced and inspired by the improvisational freedom of 60s jazz, but he was 100 miles away from any notion of jazz harmony, IMO. And I don't care what Miles said

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Is this about pop music? Screw that. Anyway, I see Weather Report and Cream have been mentioned, so...

    Guitarists Matteo Mancuso, Nir Felder, Julian Lage, Matthew Stevens, Sandra Hempel, Gilad..... are all currently breaking new ground one way or another. It's up to you if you want to listen or not.

    Laura Mvula - I remember a sensational collab. with Snarky Puppy. Great arrangement in the Conditional clip, albeit very midi-sounding. Definitely warrants further listening.

    Jimi H. was undoubtedly influenced and inspired by the improvisational freedom of 60s jazz, but he was 100 miles away from any notion of jazz harmony, IMO. And I don't care what Miles said
    It’s just about music … Pop or jazz is irrelevant. Just that the vid is taking up pop


    But plenty of people call younger jazz artists for soulless robots without a voice … Been a topic around these parts once or twice

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    It's just that banging is a music killer.

    Staying with rock, I found Little Richard & Jerry Lee Lewis good entertainers, but their banging makes them unlistenable. Billy Joel & Elton John entertain just as much but are 100 times the musicians. They know form; you can hear their training and seriousness. The songwriting reflects it. Elton John, as Reg Dwight, actually made a living as a jazz pianist early on. Could Jerry Lee?

    This is what turns people off to rock---the baseness of it at its worst, and the popularity is depressing to serious musicians and intelligent people.

    It's a miracle Frank Zappa went over as big as he did---and heartening...
    If you have a chance listen to this Elton John interview with Gilles Peterson on the subject of jazz. Big Carla Bley fan as it turns out.
    BBC Radio 6 Music - Gilles Peterson, Elton John Words and Music

    TBH I grew up on Rock, and I have a soft spot for it, but most of the criticisms levelled against hip hop etc had already been levelled against rock 40 or 50 years earlier... So I just put it down to nostalgia really, choose your preferred and comfortable noise. Select whatever aesthetic criteria suit your prejudices best. ('that isn't a song? It's just a modal vamp?' 'that's not singing, it's just talking!', 'those parallel fifths are destroying harmony', 'music went wrong when they brought in the equal tempered scale' etc)

    For Beato the 90's - grunge, alt-rock - was a golden age. Many here disagree no doubt. Besides wasn't Ricky B rhapsodising about Billie Eilish the other week? I actually think he's pretty open. But he also knows how to do click bait.

    It's all fine, but I don't need to take any of this guff seriously. I like what I like, and the rest I ignore.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    If you have a chance listen to this Elton John interview with Gilles Peterson on the subject of jazz. Big Carla Bley fan as it turns out.
    BBC Radio 6 Music - Gilles Peterson, Elton John Words and Music

    TBH I grew up on Rock, and I have a soft spot for it, but most of the criticisms levelled against hip hop etc had already been levelled against rock 40 or 50 years earlier... So I just put it down to nostalgia really, choose your preferred and comfortable noise. Select whatever aesthetic criteria suit your prejudices best. ('that isn't a song? It's just a modal vamp?' 'that's not singing, it's just talking!', 'those parallel fifths are destroying harmony', 'music went wrong when they brought in the equal tempered scale' etc)

    For Beato the 90's - grunge, alt-rock - was a golden age. Many here disagree no doubt. Besides wasn't Ricky B rhapsodising about Billie Eilish the other week? I actually think he's pretty open. But he also knows how to do click bait.

    It's all fine, but I don't need to take any of this guff seriously. I like what I like, and the rest I ignore.
    The Elton John interview is no longer online FYI.

    What did Duke say? 'There's only 2 kinds of music: good and bad'. Who am I to argue?...

  20. #44

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    As stated no shortage of great young players like Mancuso. It's the actual material or newer songs being written that's weak imo.
    Mancuso and his trio cover Weather Report and other Jazz greats as well.
    But where is his material?

    I'm old and jaded, but I was the same way as a teenager. I wanted more than just technique or rehashed ideas not preformed as well.
    Where's the synergy like Weather Report or Chick Corea Light as a Feather, James Brown, Edgar White and the White Trash, even The Police?

    Nothing verges on being groundbreaking or becoming a standard in the future.
    It seems to be cash in on the You Tube current environment.

  21. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    even The Police?
    Yeah ...These days with bands no longer being as common the old school band energy of 3 guys that simply can't stand each other is long dead .. Bring back the old days, where band members communicated thru subtle messages written on their instruments




    The Police where and probably always will be one of my all time favorite acts .. That was a unique pairing of original musicians


    Anyways you keep talking about missing band dynamics and I won't disagree with that, but while that is an interesting subject of it's own that deserves to be discussed. The number of bands is decreasing and that naturally means that fewer will rise to the top as something truly memorable ... But going from that to concluding that ALL music today is bad or boring is a stretch.

  22. #46

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    I worry about Lorde.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    I'm old and jaded, but I was the same way as a teenager. I wanted more than just technique or rehashed ideas not preformed as well.
    Where's the synergy like Weather Report or Chick Corea Light as a Feather, James Brown, Edgar White and the White Trash, even The Police?
    everywhere. But why should I bother convincing you since you clearly don’t bother to search for it yourself!

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah ...These days with bands no longer being as common the old school band energy of 3 guys that simply can't stand each other is long dead .. Bring back the old days, where band members communicated thru subtle messages written on their instruments




    The Police where and probably always will be one of my all time favorite acts .. That was a unique pairing of original musicians


    Anyways you keep talking about missing band dynamics and I won't disagree with that, but while that is an interesting subject of it's own that deserves to be discussed. The number of bands is decreasing and that naturally means that fewer will rise to the top as something truly memorable ... But going from that to concluding that ALL music today is bad or boring is a stretch.
    Haha classic Copland.

    Completely irrelevant: what are the numbers on the set list? I'm assuming there isn't a drum pad lol..

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Maybe it needs more notes

    Hi, C
    Notice the interesting tonal variations when she repeatedly points her two index fingers. And, the animal skin hats definitely contribute to a more earthy, natural tone. This is certainly the future of quality pop music.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  26. #50

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    So the point I'm making is, the musicians, arrangers, etc were generally the ones that brought the magic! Sure it takes a talented front person as well. But it's the Synergy of all of it together.

    Now that delivery system of music has changed the model to cheapen the cost, as well as let all amateurs on the field. It has become Way less musically interesting overall. It's about sales and visual stimulation.
    Much like how comic book and CIG took over movies. If that's your thing, then you will be happy. But there's a huge difference between depth and shallow entertainment.

    Also the things that are considered Hip these days are weak musically imo!